What glider if not a Speed Astir?

Dave,

Here's a slightly different point of view. Most of the gliders that
have been recommended are well-mannered, reasonably priced, and easy
to fly. They are also fragile. You are a low time pilot. Your next
steps will be to start increasing your range until you are making
cross-country flights out of easy glide to airports. That means you're
likely to make a few off field landings during the next few years. In
selecting your first glider, you should be aware that you will make
some mistakes and misjudgements. The sturdiness of the glider you
select will make the difference between flying the next day and
waiting weeks or months to complete repairs. The slower the glider
flies, the less likely you'll get damage on rollout in a rough field.
A nose wheel or nose skid goes a long way towards keeping you out of
the repair shop if you have a hard landing. Metal is tougher than
glass, glass is tougher than wood and fabric.

To that end, I would recommend you take your X-C apprenticeship in a
1-26. Yes, the performance defines the low end of the spectrum and
you'll land out a lot, but you'll also gain the experience that will
keep your next glider free of cracks. If it has to be glass, consider
a Grob 102 or ASK-23. A flapped glider offers slower touchdown speeds
(desirable) but at the cost of greater complexity. Besides, the three
models mentioned are very easy to fly, have a very short learning
curve (you get comfortable in them quickly), and can be had at very
reasonable prices. Put two hundred hours on whatever you get, earn
your silver badge while doing it, then trade up. Regardless which way
you go, make sure you have a trailer that works. That means you can
assemble or disassemble major all major components of the glider with
one other person in fifteen minutes or less. If it requires two
helpers or more than a quarter hour, look for another glider.

Regards,

Chris

Have to agree Chris, but also disagree.

For what it is worth, I will give my experience of recently getting to
the point of having my own XC aircraft.

Most of the first generation glass ships have some quirks, but they are
generally easy to fly. If it is still flying after 20-30 years it can't
be THAT fragile iether.

I made my transition as a very low time solo pilot to a Standard Cirrus
and found it a relatively easy move. The quirks and inexperience are
going to have you paying some school fees though... I was seriously
considering buying a low performance trainer as my first personal
glider, as I felt this was all I was competent to fly. In retrospect I'm
very grateful for the advice I got (some in this forum) to go and buy a
glider that would let/force me to develop.

Chris is right in that you will probably be gratefull for a sturdy
aircraft when you make the inevitable mistakes. I had to repair some gel
coat after overbraking and getting her on the nose, and being a early
model Cirrus the landing characteristics, coupled with my hamfisted
flying have resulted in some interesting arrivals. 100 hours in the
Cirrus and I am getting to the point where an outlanding in a field
would be OK (not comfortable mind). My one outlanding so far was at an
airport with decent facilities. I could have tried to make it home, but
caution is better for keeping the glider intact...

What I found was that even in the case of a glider with a bit of a
reputation for being challenging it is possible to make a safe
transition and get going on XC flying. My flying capabilities are no
better than average for a low time pilot (200 hours) As long you take
progressive steps you will not be exposing yourself or the glider to
extreme risk.

That said, some things happen because the glider is old. Metal fatigue
on my main wheel rim had me sliding down the runway with a locked wheel
after the rim seperated - very lucky to get away with a new rim and tyre
there.

My Cirrus has around 2000 hours on the airframe, she started life as the
mount of a couple of very competitive pilots. They flew her to the limit
as a (then state of the art) racing machine. She has at least 8 flights
500km and one over 800km under the belt, has been groundlooped,
landed in rough fields and landed without the benefit of the main wheel
twice. The most serious damage to date was when my partner landed neatly
on the grass runway parallel to our tar runway, and hit a landing light
that had been displaced when they cut the grass. The cockpit tub split,
and a new canopy was needed, repair took two weeks.

All in all, repairs have been relatively minor, cheap, and relatively
quick to make.

My advice would be to buy a glider that will challenge you and let you
develop as fast as possible. I would not advocate first buying a low
performance, but tough trainer. I can't speak for all of the others,
but certainly my Cirrus, the Grob and the Libelle are robust early glass
ships. Certainly I would not describe the Cirrus as fragile.

I certainly would rather have the constraints of having to learn the
cautious way in a glider with 36:1 than end up landing in the dirt
regularly. 6 months of getting comfortable and slowly challenging myself
has us at a best XC of 250km, one airfield outlanding and one landing
where I damaged the glider. I only have 8 hours in an Astir, so you must
take the opinion for what it is worth, but I would be quite happy to
recommend one. It is tough, docile and has reasonable performance.
Certainly a lot easier to land than the Cirrus although a little slower
cross country. The mods to stop flutter are not exactly aesthetically
pleasing though.

Whatever you do - that first personal glider is likely to be yours for a
long time, so rather get a "stretch" glider than one you are going to
grow out of fast.

David,

On your other thread you gave your experience as:

"In my case "novice" means about 20 training flights & a few solo flights in
a Grob 103 II A. I guess I'm really just a beginner!"

The recommendation to buy a Kestrel is irresponsible and dangerous. I
owned a Slingsby Kestrel 19 for 8 seasons. It is now outstanding value,
performance for the money, but completely unsuitable for someone of your
level of experience.

I think a Libelle whether 301 (flapped) or 201 (standard class) is also
unsuitable. Owain owned one (perhaps still does if he has not found a
buyer yet) and flew it very well with considerable success. His 201 has
the Sreifeneder mods., winglets and improved wingroot fairing.

He gives a clue to the problem with the Libelle when he says "You just need
to fly it properly", to an experienced pilot this comes quickly, but you do
not need this problem!

Libelle airbrakes are not as good as those on the ASW-19, Pegase or LS-4 and
at your level of experience this matters a lot.

The Libelle is probably the easiest and lightest of all gliders to rig.

I have flown a Junior, it is a nice glider and an obvious first solo glider
for a club to own. But the performance is not as high as the other gliders
mentioned, and you would soon outgrow it. I suspect that there are not
many of them in the U.S.A.

I know of one club which owned a fixed wheel version of the Pegase. They
trained on K21s and the requirement to fly the Peg. was 5 hours solo. I
flew that glider and liked it.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Owain Walters" wrote in
message ...

Dave,

Ignore the Kestrel and the Junior.

Most of the other suggestions are pretty reasonable.

Jantar - looks ugly but has lots of poke.
Libelle - actually goes better than people think. You
just need to fly it properly.
Cirrus - goes well.
ASW-19 - nice handling, looks good and has a bit of
poke.
Pegase - nearly the same as the 19.
LS4 - if you can stretch to this get one. Ignore all
of the above, if you cant then see above!

BTW. There is a good deal on a Pegase on wings and
wheels which may be of interest to you. (Commission
payable to Owain Walters!)

Owain

In article ,
Janusz Kesik wrote:
Well, a Jantar Standard 2/3 or Junior (depending what You like more - LD
40:1 or extremely easy handling respectively) would be perfect I think.
If You'll be looking hard, guys from my club have found Jantars in CIS fo
r a bargain price, and now we have 6 of them at our field. You may look f
or them also.


I don't think I would buy any glider unless I had
rented it first. Minden has a Mini-nimbus,
LS-3, LS-4, and grob 102s. If it ain't too inconvenient,
rent some before you buy. Maybe you fall in love
with something. You also could perhaps get someone
to add you to their insurance so you can try out their
glider. Could be hard to find someone willing to
do that, but it's worth a shot...especially if it's
a PW-5 or Russia or Pegasus with the gear left down...

A PW-5

JK

"Chris OCallaghan" wrote in message

Here's a slightly different point of view. Most of the gliders that
have been recommended are well-mannered, reasonably priced, and easy
to fly. They are also fragile.

....Another reason why I think the Jantar Std 3 is an excellent ship, not
only as a "first" ship, but because it can also be a first ship.
It's built like a tank. I takes a lot of beating to even bend those sturdy
gear doors or the gear mechanism.
Tail boom is as strong as they come.

You can fly it without ballast, get comfortable with it for 50 hrs or so...
Then fill the integral water ballast tanks (no bags to fiddle with) and see
what life is all about.

You will be happy for a long time.

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 21:37:50 +0000 (UTC),
(Michel Talon) wrote:

Come on ... a Pegasus is the same class as an LS4. But your advice is
very good. The poster should rent a glider before buying a model of a
given type. There is no better opinion that one's. Anyways, i shall
venture to give my advice: LS4, ASW20 or Pegasus (very similar) as first
choice. LS3, ASW19 as second choice. If not too expensive, flapped
gliders (LS3,ASW20) are preferable but a little more demanding for
beginners.

ASW 20 for a beginner who just soloed?
Bold... very bold.


Bye
Andreas

Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 21:37:50 +0000 (UTC),
(Michel Talon) wrote:

Come on ... a Pegasus is the same class as an LS4. But your advice is
very good. The poster should rent a glider before buying a model of a
given type. There is no better opinion that one's. Anyways, i shall
venture to give my advice: LS4, ASW20 or Pegasus (very similar) as first
choice. LS3, ASW19 as second choice. If not too expensive, flapped
gliders (LS3,ASW20) are preferable but a little more demanding for
beginners.

ASW 20 for a beginner who just soloed?
Bold... very bold.

Yes you are right, the LS3 is quiter,
and similarly the LS4 is quiter than the Pegase.

--

Michel TALON

Well... no storm? ))

By the way, the PW-5 would be truly perfect for one who has just
soloed...

Regards,

JK

choice. LS3, ASW19 as second choice. If not too expensive, flapped
gliders (LS3,ASW20) are preferable but a little more demanding for
beginners.

ASW 20 for a beginner who just soloed?
Bold... very bold.


I know of power pilots who are newly transitioned
to slippery retract airplanes (Bonanza V35, for example).
They ask me about flying them IFR. I tell them that
for the first dozen flights in actual (usually
just climb or approach though a 1000 foot thich stratus layer),
I just flew with cowl flaps open and the gear down. Then
it flew sorta like a Cezzna 172.
More stable, harder to forget the gear, and less airspeed
change with pitch. After I get more
experience I complicated things and was able to
fire off a speedy checklist...

An ASW-20 has flaps, spoilers, and retract gear.
One can simulate gear with a little gear knob
with lights found at Sporty's.
Maybe fly around with the gear down all the time for
a half-dozen, just using the "simulator?"
And have your partners check to see if the gear
lever is down for landing (you owe them a round
if it ain't

Is there a flap setting in the ASW-20 that one
can use for the entire flight? If one
left the flaps at +8 for takeoff, slowly flying around,
and then landing, would this be fine? Or is it like the
PIK-20 where one sets -8 flaps till rotation then
0...

I noticed the mini-nimbus flight manual
(which I was able to read online) seems to allow flaps
+8 for takeoff (given certain C.G.s and weights),
+8 for slow aerotow,
+8 for slow and thermalling flight
+8 for landing.

So in the mini-nimbus
this "set it and forget it" seems at least
possible for a few familairization pattern tows.

If one can set flaps and fly them for the whole
flight that way, then it seems one could fly a
half dozen "pattern tows" with flaps at the same setting
and the gear down, and get familiar with trim and
spoiler use without immediate added complexity
of retract and flaps.

www.soaravenal.com/041903.htm
outlines one experience of a newbie
to using flaps and retract simultaneously.
I believe he (or perhaps it was someone else)
also had a few inexpensive nascent ground loops as well...

I have Bob Wander's single-seat transition and
it seemed to mention nothing about this gradual
approach to familiarizing oneself to complex
single-seaters. Perhaps I am off in left field...

It does seem, however, that buying into a parnership
with a sleek ASW-20 would be great if combined
with the discipline to follow a regimented
training plan that avoids use of flaps and gear,
if this is an option. And perhaps a similary sized
"test pilot helper" to fly it right before
hand and set the trim just right for takeoff.