What glider if not a Speed Astir?

Mark James Boyd wrote:
An ASW-20 has flaps, spoilers, and retract gear.
One can simulate gear with a little gear knob
with lights found at Sporty's.
Maybe fly around with the gear down all the time for
a half-dozen, just using the "simulator?"
And have your partners check to see if the gear
lever is down for landing (you owe them a round
if it ain't

The real problem for a low time pilot in an ASW-20 isn't complexity. If
you put a typical 20 in thermal or landing flap and get a little slow in
a turn, it will do a nice spin entry, with a lot less warning and in a
more spectacular fashion than most low time pilots are used to. It
isn't an issue if you have enough experience to know reflexively what to
do, but for those who have trained in and only flown gliders which are
reluctant to spin, there are safer choices...

Marc

Mark,

You have to balance your need against your pocketbook. You seem to have some
sense about you so let me offer you another way of looking at aircraft
selection that is safe, affordable, and gets you a good glider.

Buy what you want to fly and as much as you can afford. If that airplane is
an ASW-20, then good. You end up with a good, well-known glider with good
parts support and a market to sell into when you are done with it.

You don't end up with a useless, out-of-date ship that will keep you from
moving up when the time comes because you won't be able to find a buyer.

How is this safe? Simple: Get trained by a competent instructor in relevant
equipment. When that instructor says you are trained, go fly your glider.

Your instructor will show you spins. If you don't think the trainer is
similar enough or instructor experienced enough, go find one that is. Then
go up and spin your glider. Don't do this the other way around.

And as far as retractable gear, there is one sure fire way of assuring
yourself that you will always put it down. Don't fly it. A good second
choice (but one that can fail) is to develop habits, follow checklists,
maintain situational awareness, and double check yourself. Still....

Every pilot started with NO knowledge and NO experience. An extremely small
percentage have had accidents. This is because sensible pilots get the
training they need. If you don't get instruction and you aren't very smart
and you run out of luck, there is nothing on RAS that will help you avoid
the inevitable.

But, Mark, an ASW-20, like most "high performance" gliders gives you the
performance in soaring to have more fun and since most of your time will be
flying and not crashing, buy something that will help you accomplish that
goal.

Just don't assume you know how to do something until an instructor shows you
how.

John Shelton

On 12 Dec 2003 11:07:26 -0700, (Mark James Boyd)
wrote:


Maybe fly around with the gear down all the time for
a half-dozen, just using the "simulator?"
And have your partners check to see if the gear
lever is down for landing (you owe them a round
if it ain't

Why do that? The gear is one more item on the landing check list,
that's all. And a landing checklist is mandatory anyway. Take the time
to familiarize yourself with the glider enough that you will not
forget this item.
Have you been driving your first car only with the first gear in the
beginning?


Is there a flap setting in the ASW-20 that one
can use for the entire flight? If one
left the flaps at +8 for takeoff, slowly flying around,
and then landing, would this be fine? Or is it like the
PIK-20 where one sets -8 flaps till rotation then
0...

There is no such setting on the 20. On aerotow it has a strong
tendency to drop a wing (you need to change flap position to encounter
that, with crosswind you even use spoilers in the beginning of the
tow), and the landing flap setting of the 20 causes a very steep
approach where you need precise speed control. Not to mention the
pretty sharp spin entry.

In my opinion the 20 is the glider with the best flying
characteristics that was ever designed, but it's definitely not a ship
for a beginner who just soloed. If you are not safely able to handle
the above, you should stay away from a 20.

If one can set flaps and fly them for the whole
flight that way, then it seems one could fly a
half dozen "pattern tows" with flaps at the same setting
and the gear down, and get familiar with trim and
spoiler use without immediate added complexity
of retract and flaps.

Well.. if you are not able to handle the full range of the aircraft's
controls, you are in danger.
There is no sunbstitute for practice and experience. In my club you
needed 100 hrs to fly the 20 (after Ka-8, Astir, ASW-15, DG-300 and
ASW-24), and this is a value that I'd regard as safe.


I have Bob Wander's single-seat transition and
it seemed to mention nothing about this gradual
approach to familiarizing oneself to complex
single-seaters. Perhaps I am off in left field...

Well... his report didn't sound very safe to me I have to admit.

Just imagine one thing: Rope break at low altitude (I guess you have
some experience with that... lol).

Are you sure that you will be able to handle this in a complex
aircraft that you have flown for 30 seconds, which feels completely
different from the only glider you have ever flown (Grob G 103), which
is so quiet that you have to look at the airspeed indicator to see
your speed, where the horizon is on a completely different position
than in your 103, where you have to grab one lever (of three, all at
the same position, looking and feeling similar) on the left hand side
of the cockpit while you are dividing your attention between that
field in front of you, the airspeed indicator, the altimeter, and that
landing spot you want to hit?


It does seem, however, that buying into a parnership
with a sleek ASW-20 would be great if combined
with the discipline to follow a regimented
training plan that avoids use of flaps and gear,
if this is an option. And perhaps a similary sized
"test pilot helper" to fly it right before
hand and set the trim just right for takeoff.

I'm strongly against a training plan that avoids the use of a part of
the aircraft's promary flight controls (yes... this is how I regard
flaps and gear).

Either a pilot is able to handle them, or he is not. In the latter
case he is not able to safely handle the plane.
Of course he might survive enough flights to become halfways
proficient in the plane, but I would not bet on that.

Basic rule #1: If you (and your instructors) are not 100% convinced
that you are going to be able to handle an aircraft, don't fly it.

Fly about 50 hours in an easier glass ship, and you will be doing fine
in a 20.

Bye
Andreas

no, it's not worth it, it's being beneath contempt ;-)

A P
---
PW5 Antichrist

"Janusz Kesik" wrote in message
...
Well... no storm? ))

By the way, the PW-5 would be truly perfect for one who has just
soloed...

Regards,

JK

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 00:04:13 +0100, Andreas Maurer
wrote:


Well.. if you are not able to handle the full range of the aircraft's
controls, you are in danger.
There is no sunbstitute for practice and experience. In my club you
needed 100 hrs to fly the 20 (after Ka-8, Astir, ASW-15, DG-300 and
ASW-24), and this is a value that I'd regard as safe.


Just curious (only flown an ASW20 two or three times, a long time
ago)-

What two-seaters do you train in? Do you have any high performance
flapped two-seaters used for advanced training? Something nicely
spinnable like a Puchacz for spin training?

I agree that it can't be done without practice and experience, I just
have a suspicion that what the practice and experience is on may have
a bit to do with it. Also training can be pretty useful.
--
"Curmudgeonly is the new cool" (Terry Wogan)
(The real name at the left of the e-mail address is richard)

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:31:58 GMT,
(Richard Brisbourne) wrote:


What two-seaters do you train in? Do you have any high performance
flapped two-seaters used for advanced training? Something nicely
spinnable like a Puchacz for spin training?

Primary training is done in ASK-21, spin training is done in DG-505
with short wings (and was done in Twin 2 when we still had one).

I agree that it can't be done without practice and experience, I just
have a suspicion that what the practice and experience is on may have
a bit to do with it. Also training can be pretty useful.

I think in the end it comes down to overall experience - a pilot with
sufficient experience in non-flapped glass ships won't have problems
with a 20 (at least none of my club's pilots had) if he had a good
briefing.




Bye
Andreas

(Flyhighdave) wrote in message ...
So some of you really don't think to highly of the Speed Astir. What then would
be your recommendations for a first glider for a low time pilot training &
soloing in a G103 II A? I need something under $20,000. that will keep me happy
for a while. Thanks for your input!
David


You can pick up a nice Libelle for $12 to $15K US. An LS1-f is a nice
ship if you can come across one. Prices are about $17 to $20K.

Tim
e-mail: tim (at) adirondacksoaring.com

ANY Schleicher standard class glass would be nice. I bought a 15 and
even though it doesn't have any more performance than the club's two
Grob 102's the WAY she flys is pure magic. A version of the Standard
Jantar, provided you find it comfortable (I do, many people I have
seen try our club's Jantar don't). Don't get an LS4 I'm sure it's a
very nice glider to fly but its so generic and faceless you might have
trouble picking out your own ship on the airfield. I swear they
produced them like plastic model airplane parts an a huge frame and
just clipped one off everytime someone ordered one. Or maybe they sold
them in Costco by the six-pack. "I'll take 6oo pounds of glider
please." "Certainly sir, what colour? "White thank you."

Just kidding.

Earlier, (nowhere) wrote:

Don't get an LS4 I'm sure it's a
very nice glider to fly but its
so generic and faceless you might have
trouble picking out your own ship on
the airfield...

That's about the poorest excuse for not getting an LS-4 that I've ever
read. What matters isn't what you see of the glider, but rather what
you see _from_ it.

The LS-4 is about the sweetest-flying standard class ship I've ever
flown, and it has good performance and rugged construction besides.
Some days I regret not just buying one and being done with it. Ah, the
joys of competing with sanity itself...

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24/