A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #131  
Old October 17th 17, 12:38 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,940
Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Monday, October 16, 2017 at 11:01:03 AM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Monday, October 16, 2017 at 12:57:35 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
This is disturbing news to hear that the military can not afford to
comply with the ADS-B requirement while GA is required.
And why the wingmen in formation turn off their transponders?


Hi Ramy - IIRC, for civilian formation flying, procedure is normally
the same; only one in formation has transponder on. Why?
Because otherwise they all get interrogated at the same time,
they all answer at the same time, and the result is unintelligible
(this is called "fruiting", kinda like everyone shouting at the
same time - even worse than RAS).

In principal this is less of a problem with Mode S, except a
mode S transponder behaves like an old Mode C when it gets an
old-style interrogation. And while ground stations send new-style
interrogation, older TCAS-I installations send the old-style
interrogation. And these are installed in better-equipped GA
aircraft like Lee's Bonanza.

Darryl, please correct if I've garbled (fruited) this...

Hope that's clear!
Best Regards, Dave


Yes that's right and with Mode S transponders primarily being interrogated by Mode S capable SSR you can likely leave multiple transponders on in a formation flight. I have no idea if the military ha moved to do that more recently or not. The selective interrogation of Mode S deals with what would otherwise be fruiting/overlap of the Mode A/C replies. Even with Mode C transponders I've had comments from controllers and radar techs that modern radar systems are able to deccorealate several closely based Mode C targets. I've got no hard numbers on that.

Transponder use patterns is another thing to ask about when talking to ATC or airforce MACA reps etc.
Ads
  #132  
Old October 17th 17, 04:06 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ramy[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 312
Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

Dave, Yes, would make sense to have only one transponder in formation, but 2 miles and 1000 feet different is not a formation!

Ramy
  #133  
Old October 17th 17, 04:17 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ramy[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 312
Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

I had the exact same problem with my LX9000. It is an issue with the LX9000 missing the option to turn off collision alarms for mode C (while retaining the mode C alert functionality). I exchanged few emails with LXNAV and they agreed to provide this option on next firmware update. But will be good if others will report this issue to them as well. I found out that most folks rather discuss instrument issues on RAS instead of the manufacture.
On the same note I should point out that I've been following up both with LXNAV and Flarm on few issues recently, and both have excellent customer support with very timely response. You just need to explain your issue patiently and persistently as the first assumption that all technical supports always have is that the customer did not read the manual and does not understand how to use the unit, but once you get pass that they listen

Ramy
  #134  
Old October 17th 17, 05:20 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
JS[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 78
Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

Someone got a video of the three buggers that flew low and fast over the house.
Jim

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2UJ...ature=youtu.be
  #135  
Old October 17th 17, 02:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Nadler
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,184
Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Monday, October 16, 2017 at 11:06:41 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
2 miles and 1000 feet different is not a formation!


Unfortunately they seem to consider this a formation, as it
happens while a formation "maneuvers"... Not Blue Angels stuff.
Rich, do I understand this correctly?
  #136  
Old October 18th 17, 02:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Rich Owen[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 37
Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

Lol Dave!! Loved your answer!!
  #137  
Old October 18th 17, 02:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Rich Owen[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 37
Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

This would be a formation and only one should have the transponder on. I bet, Blues 2-4 and Number 6 rarely ever have their transponder on except when flying as a single. Any former Blues or Thunderbirds out there?
  #138  
Old October 20th 17, 03:20 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Monday, October 16, 2017 at 5:43:08 AM UTC-7, Squeaky wrote:
'WaltWX[_2_ Wrote:
;957147']On Friday, October 13, 2017 at 5:22:24 AM UTC-7, Rich Owen
wrote:-
All military aircraft have transponders and we do show up on on
civilian equipment.-

I agree with JS... and have come to my own conclusion that not all these
fighters are squawking with a transponder.

Sure hope that DOD budget can afford ADS-B out 1090ES for all their
equipment.


OK, fyi... All fighters have transponders. FYI only the LEAD aircraft
squawks for the formation. If you encounter numbers 2-4 leaving the
range and flying at a speed to catch up to lead aircraft who is climbing
out or transiting airspace at the normal 300kt IAS, the wingman will be
faster. Quite often, in tactical formation, the spread between aircraft
can be two nm. So you can encounter a fighter not squawking because he
is a wingman, and you may not see the lead/squawking aircraft because of
the distance away. And the lead aircraft WILL have his transponder on.

The military is dealing with how to comply with ADSB. However, the
military budget has been crap since 2013, and frankly we do not have the
money to upgrade the aircraft and also keep them combat capable. We
desire to do both, but we do not have the money, but it is the plan.




--
Squeaky


The 2 military jets that flew over Hot Springs just east of Warner Springs a week ago did not show up on my Flarm display. They may have X-ponders but they were not squawking if they had them.
Steve
  #139  
Old October 20th 17, 04:18 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
JS[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 78
Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Thursday, October 19, 2017 at 7:20:22 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, October 16, 2017 at 5:43:08 AM UTC-7, Squeaky wrote:
'WaltWX[_2_ Wrote:
;957147']On Friday, October 13, 2017 at 5:22:24 AM UTC-7, Rich Owen
wrote:-
All military aircraft have transponders and we do show up on on
civilian equipment.-

I agree with JS... and have come to my own conclusion that not all these
fighters are squawking with a transponder.

Sure hope that DOD budget can afford ADS-B out 1090ES for all their
equipment.


OK, fyi... All fighters have transponders. FYI only the LEAD aircraft
squawks for the formation. If you encounter numbers 2-4 leaving the
range and flying at a speed to catch up to lead aircraft who is climbing
out or transiting airspace at the normal 300kt IAS, the wingman will be
faster. Quite often, in tactical formation, the spread between aircraft
can be two nm. So you can encounter a fighter not squawking because he
is a wingman, and you may not see the lead/squawking aircraft because of
the distance away. And the lead aircraft WILL have his transponder on.

The military is dealing with how to comply with ADSB. However, the
military budget has been crap since 2013, and frankly we do not have the
money to upgrade the aircraft and also keep them combat capable. We
desire to do both, but we do not have the money, but it is the plan.




--
Squeaky


The 2 military jets that flew over Hot Springs just east of Warner Springs a week ago did not show up on my Flarm display. They may have X-ponders but they were not squawking if they had them.
Steve


Steve, I've been passed by fighters along that ridge with no detection. Came from behind, so no visual until off the wingtip. The closest was not a glider pilot or wouldn't have been close at the same altitude and away from the ridge.
SoCal confirmed my own TXP operation.
Jim
  #140  
Old October 20th 17, 11:51 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 27
Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

The official report does not provide any additional information.

http://www.asias.faa.gov/pls/apex/f?...R:NGLTRFD17001
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Stinson Airliner pics 1 [04/11] - Chicago Municipal Airport - American Airlines - Stinson Model A Tri-Motor.jpg (1/1) Miloch Aviation Photos 0 August 14th 17 02:55 PM
Need to move a glider from Chicago to Los Angeles Maciek Arkuszewski Soaring 14 May 18th 16 11:59 PM
Aug 6th B738 and Glider Near Miss. Frankfurt Karen Soaring 70 October 23rd 10 05:27 AM
Glider-Airliner Near Miss jcarlyle Soaring 0 June 12th 07 04:52 PM
Report on "Old" Glider/airliner midair? Jim Kellett Soaring 5 October 13th 03 02:20 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2017 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.