Armchair CD U.S. Sports Class Nats

From looking at the sports class nationals scores, And seeing that
their have been only THREE landouts in four days of a 42 glider
NATIONALS, I'm thinking CD McQuigg is not pushing his troops hard
enough at this huge contest. I have heard that he is an ultra-
conservative CD, which is fine for a regional. I am of the opinion,
however, that with a spot on the team at stake that there be a bit
more separation of the scores. What do you folks think?

Oh, by the way anyone willing to take that thankless job of CD has my
undying respect, so before you jackals flame the crud out of me,
realize I'm trying to get some interesting discussion going on here as
"The Beatles sent my father to Hell" and "My air conditioner ate my
brother" are just not what I'm looking for when I come to this group.

-EX

From looking at the sports class nationals scores, And seeing that
their have been only THREE landouts in four days of a 42 glider
NATIONALS, I'm thinking CD McQuigg is not pushing his troops hard
enough at this huge contest.


It sounds like you misunderstand how time-limited tasks (MAT, TAT) are
supposed to work. Yes, on assigned tasks, if everyone finishes it's a
sign the task is too short, and the CD guide used to call for landing
out anyone slower than 75% (I think) of the winner's speed. But the
idea of a time-limited task is that everyone can come home when the
thermals quit, with slower pilots simply racking up less distance.
Fraction of landouts is not a good sign of how ambitious the task is.

It is possible, and quite common, for CDs to under-call time-limited
tasks. 3 hours at a nationals is supposed to be a minimum, with 4
hours a "standard" task, and the CD is supposed to use as much of the
soaring day as possible. The rules committee has been putting some
emphasis on getting this word out to CDs. It is very frustrating to be
at a contest on the best day in years, with 7 hours of soarable
weather, have a CD call a 3 hour task, finish and then watch the cus
go by for a few hours as a 750k day evaporates.

With this in mind, I note that there have been two 3:00 calls and two
3:30 calls. The contest reports also say that it has been late to
trigger on a few days, with gates open in the 2 pm range, so that may
well be reasonable. The sign of undercall is if we hear reports that
people are landing while the thermals are still going strong, with
lots of soarable day left. I haven't heard anything like that yet.

The "armchair" question: what are we doing wasting time on RAS when we
should be flying what seems like the best midwestern contest in
years?!

John Cochrane BB

On Jun 16, 11:05 am, BB wrote:
From looking at the sports class nationals scores, And seeing that
their have been only THREE landouts in four days of a 42 glider
NATIONALS, I'm thinking CD McQuigg is not pushing his troops hard
enough at this huge contest.

It sounds like you misunderstand how time-limited tasks (MAT, TAT) are
supposed to work. Yes, on assigned tasks, if everyone finishes it's a
sign the task is too short, and the CD guide used to call for landing
out anyone slower than 75% (I think) of the winner's speed. But the
idea of a time-limited task is that everyone can come home when the
thermals quit, with slower pilots simply racking up less distance.
Fraction of landouts is not a good sign of how ambitious the task is.

It is possible, and quite common, for CDs to under-call time-limited
tasks. 3 hours at a nationals is supposed to be a minimum, with 4
hours a "standard" task, and the CD is supposed to use as much of the
soaring day as possible. The rules committee has been putting some
emphasis on getting this word out to CDs. It is very frustrating to be
at a contest on the best day in years, with 7 hours of soarable
weather, have a CD call a 3 hour task, finish and then watch the cus
go by for a few hours as a 750k day evaporates.

With this in mind, I note that there have been two 3:00 calls and two
3:30 calls. The contest reports also say that it has been late to
trigger on a few days, with gates open in the 2 pm range, so that may
well be reasonable. The sign of undercall is if we hear reports that
people are landing while the thermals are still going strong, with
lots of soarable day left. I haven't heard anything like that yet.

The "armchair" question: what are we doing wasting time on RAS when we
should be flying what seems like the best midwestern contest in
years?!

John Cochrane BB

Maybe reading the rules will help also along with the guide
lines ...............

A10.3.1.2 Task-calling considerations for the CD
General
- Select good (i.e. knowledgeable, fair and decisive) task advisors,
and use them.
- Using the best available weather information and the help of the
task advisors, estimate:
- - The times at which soarable conditions will start and end
- - The speed that the winner will achieve
- Be ready to modify these estimates as the day develops.
- Using these estimates and the guidelines on task length of Rule
10.3.1, select three tasks appropriate to the predicted conditions. At
the pilots' meeting, name the longest of these as the primary task.
- The mix of tasks should be balanced across all task types.
- Be ready to launch 30 minutes before the earliest possible start of
the day.
- Launch the sniffer as early as is practical. Launch the fleet as
soon as the sniffer indicates that conditions are acceptable (see the
comments for Rule 10.6.2.6, below).
- Understand the importance of an efficient launch. The ideal would be
to get everyone into the air in 5 minutes. That isn't possible, but
anything that makes the launch go more smoothly is welcome. The saving
of even a few seconds per launch adds up.
- Make a point of consulting the task advisors between 15 and 10
minutes before the task opens, to verify that those in the air feel
the contemplated task will be safe and fair.
- On difficult days, keep trying until it is really too late to get a
fair task in. Listen principally to the weatherman, rather than pilots
who may be complaining that they'd prefer to pack up their gliders and
go swimming.
- Try to use the full day, not merely the best part of it. Inevitable,
60-90 minutes or more are lost to the launch and pre-start. Try to
call tasks that make good use of the rest.
- Use distant turnpoints in good weather - save the nearby ones for
the tough days. Visiting a variety of turnpoints tends to add interest
to a contest.
- With Minimum-time tasks (TAT and MAT), inexperienced pilots
especially should be made aware of the significance of the Standard
Minimum Task Distance. A pilot who flies the minimum possible distance
may not have enough distance to get credit for a finish. This is
doubly important in Sport class, where the minimum distance to get
credit for a finish depends on a glider's handicap.

Also: 10.3 Tasks
10.3.1 General
10.3.1.1 † Task Parameters
· † Standard Minimum Task Distance: 50 miles
· † Standard Minimum Task Time: 3.0 hours
· Standard Task Time: 4.0 hours
· Minimum length of first leg: 5 miles
· Minimum length of subsequent task legs: 2 miles
· Maximum number of task legs: 11
10.3.1.2 Task Selection - Tasks should be selected so
as to provide variety and challenge. The CD should consult all
available meteorological resources and seek the advice of Task
Advisory Committee (Rule 3.1.5). CDs are expected to use a mix of task
types, lengths and directions, as conditions dictate. Specific task-
setting guidelines are found in the Guide to the Rules; CDs should be
familiar with these guidelines.
10.3.1.3 Normal Task - Tasks should make as full use of
the available soaring weather as is practical. When feasible, tasks
should be set so that the expected minimum completion time is not less
than the Standard Task Time. Yet a task should be short enough that a
pilot who starts as soon as the task opens and who achieves 75% of the
expected winning speed is able to finish. A time-limited task should
normally allow a maximum possible distance at least 130% of that
achievable in the designated minimum time at the expected winning
speed.
10.3.1.4 † Minimum Task - The minimum handicapped
distance of a task for which a finish will be awarded is the Standard
Minimum Task Distance.
10.3.1.5 Maximum Task - Tasks should be set such that
the total time on course of the highest-scoring flights on any two
consecutive days is less than 10 hours. But, consistent with this and
as conditions allow, it is appropriate for the CD to set occasional
tasks that are substantially longer than the Standard Task Time.

Mitch, nowhere in our rules, does it say the CD is to be judged by
landouts on task calls. Today, at Nationals, as well as Regionals, we
have the entire spectrum of contest pilots, who are just trying to
have a good and safe contest. Landouts do not mean its been a good
task call. As pilots who fly contests get more experience, fewer
landouts will happen. Those at the top of the score sheet, will have a
smaller point spread, making them accountable for even the smallest of
mistakes.Thus making it more exciting as the contest comes to its end
and the point spread is close. Even our points for landouts have been
revised upwards. Thats good news for everyone.
Maybe you need to go to more contests and doing as BB said, get out
and do some glider flying. I am taking the day off, as the last 4
days I have soared 27 hours in Parowan and its been booming.........#
711.

I'd love to do more glider flying, Tom, but this darn pesky "Defending
the country" thing just keeps getting in the way. 8 more years until
I'm retired and can join you merry chaps on a regular basis.

Maybe when the rules are written here in the states to make us
competitive again on the world scene where, incidentally there ARE
more landouts, the U.S. teams can at least move to the top half of the
score sheet? I know for a fact it is not our pilots skill levels.
They are right up there with the best Europe has to offer. I'm
attributing it to the fact that we make 3 hour tasks on a 7 hour
soaring day and assume that we "really" racing.

-EX

"Stir'rin the pot"

Having flown all six of the contest days here, I can personally assure
you that CD Andy McQuigg has done an outstanding job of calling tasks
that make the best use of the weather. The days have definitely not
been easy, with a number of pilots (including this one) having low
saves on final glides as the lift quit. The first three days we were
unable to start the launch before 1pm. If memory serves, three days
the task was changed in the air. It hasn't been easy. Day five and
six in particular really shook up the score sheet.

So rather than whining, why don't you go fly your glider... oh wait,
you don't even care about flying it... word is spreading about how
you make "use" of it - and I'm not the only one thats picked up.

2c


On Jun 16, 6:12 pm, Mitch wrote:
I'd love to do more glider flying, Tom, but this darn pesky "Defending
the country" thing just keeps getting in the way. 8 more years until
I'm retired and can join you merry chaps on a regular basis.

Maybe when the rules are written here in the states to make us
competitive again on the world scene where, incidentally there ARE
more landouts, the U.S. teams can at least move to the top half of the
score sheet? I know for a fact it is not our pilots skill levels.
They are right up there with the best Europe has to offer. I'm
attributing it to the fact that we make 3 hour tasks on a 7 hour
soaring day and assume that we "really" racing.

-EX

"Stir'rin the pot"

On Jun 19, 10:37 am, "
wrote:
Having flown all six of the contest days here, I can personally assure
you that CD Andy McQuigg has done an outstanding job of calling tasks
that make the best use of the weather. The days have definitely not
been easy, with a number of pilots (including this one) having low
saves on final glides as the lift quit. The first three days we were
unable to start the launch before 1pm. If memory serves, three days
the task was changed in the air. It hasn't been easy. Day five and
six in particular really shook up the score sheet.

So rather than whining, why don't you go fly your glider... oh wait,
you don't even care about flying it... word is spreading about how
you make "use" of it - and I'm not the only one thats picked up.

2c

On Jun 16, 6:12 pm, Mitch wrote:



I'd love to do more glider flying, Tom, but this darn pesky "Defending
the country" thing just keeps getting in the way. 8 more years until
I'm retired and can join you merry chaps on a regular basis.

Maybe when the rules are written here in the states to make us
competitive again on the world scene where, incidentally there ARE
more landouts, the U.S. teams can at least move to the top half of the
score sheet? I know for a fact it is not our pilots skill levels.
They are right up there with the best Europe has to offer. I'm
attributing it to the fact that we make 3 hour tasks on a 7 hour
soaring day and assume that we "really" racing.

-EX

"Stir'rin the pot"- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

guys guys guys...the problem isnt the tasks, or the CD, or the
weather. its the gliders and the pilots. they're just too damn good!!

-Tony (dreaming of 40:1+ and water ballast)

So rather than whining, why don't you go fly your glider... oh wait,
you don't even care about flying it... word is spreading about how
you make "use" of it - and I'm not the only one thats picked up.

2c

I really hope that there is supposed to be a missing sarcasm tag
following that closing statement...
Mitch has done way more than most in this community to help young
pilots out that are trying to earn badges, fly contest, and compete in
nationals. He always has the option of letting his Discus sit in his
trailer while he is completing Navigator school for the air force, or
while attending Officer Training School. Mitch my not be a flight
instructor, like yourself Kevin, but he does far more than his share
to help this community and sport, and a snide remark like that is
warranted in private conversation, let alone in a public news group.

Orion Kingman
DV8

Good point Mitch.

Maybe it is a matter of endurance, perhaps due to aging.

Seems as though pilots in National Contests should be expected as a
rule to meet at least "Silver Badge" requirements in daily
competition. This includes flights in access of five hours and the
resulting task distances in todays very high performance sailplanes.

The younger pilots should be tested and honed for success with longer
and tougher tasks in National competition, even though it will require
pilots showing up with crews, due to more landouts.

Mike

On Jun 20, 9:52 am, Mike wrote:
Good point Mitch.

Maybe it is a matter of endurance, perhaps due to aging.

Seems as though pilots in National Contests should be expected as a
rule to meet at least "Silver Badge" requirements in daily
competition. This includes flights in access of five hours and the
resulting task distances in todays very high performance sailplanes.

The younger pilots should be tested and honed for success with longer
and tougher tasks in National competition, even though it will require
pilots showing up with crews, due to more landouts.

Mike

Agreed.

Tom (711) and John (BB)- I understand trying to accommodate all
participants, but I'm not sure if this hold water at a national where
team selection is in the balance. The rules committee has made is
fairly clear that a sports class event should be tasked for a Discus
to Libelle 201 range ship (If I recall correctly), thus eliminating
the need for the CD to task for the KA-6 that shows up to the same
event as a Nimbus 3. If in the best opinion of the CD, and his task
advisers, a Libelle 201 could fly 50 mph in a given 5 hour soaring
window then task the fleet with a 250 mile call, but don't shorten the
task/time at a national to make sure that everyone can make it home
for that nights festivities. A national should be an event where the
cream of the crop is forced to rise to the top of the score sheet, to
insure that we have the best possible representation at a WGC. BTW
711, I've been flying in and out of SLC lately... I'm bummed that I'm
not in the N3 down at Parowan... the cu fields have been gorgeous from
the cockpit of the CRJ.

DV8

On Jun 16, 10:10 am, Mitch wrote:
From looking at the sports class nationals scores, And seeing that

their have been only THREE landouts in four days of a 42 glider
NATIONALS, I'm thinking CD McQuigg is not pushing his troops hard
enough at this huge contest. I have heard that he is an ultra-
conservative CD, which is fine for a regional. I am of the opinion,
however, that with a spot on the team at stake that there be a bit
more separation of the scores. What do you folks think?

Oh, by the way anyone willing to take that thankless job of CD has my
undying respect, so before you jackals flame the crud out of me,
realize I'm trying to get some interesting discussion going on here as
"The Beatles sent my father to Hell" and "My air conditioner ate my
brother" are just not what I'm looking for when I come to this group.

-EX

You said it right Mitch: taking the CD job is a thankless job! ...

Irrespective of whether you do it right or not... someone will always
complain or whine!

Andy: You are doing a great job!!!!

KO