Supplemental oxygen

Steve Koerner wrote on 7/23/2019 10:21 AM:
On a related note, if you run out of oxygen, you can get yourself some extra altitude margin in a pinch by pressure breathing. I rather discovered this while swimming laps. I could do better with a controlled pressurized exhale. I figured the same idea might transfer to soaring. I did some reading that supported the premise and then did some experimenting at altitude. It definitely works (legalities aside). Having 45 years of western soaring under my belt, I have a better than average sense for my own personal oxygen requirements. My tentative conclusion is that, for me, pressure breathing is worth around three thousand feet. Certainly I'm not recommending pressure breathing in lieu of supplemental oxygen, but it might be a useful thing to know about just in case.

Are you talking about "pursed lips breathing"? That can raise my ox saturation 5
percentage points.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf

On Tuesday, July 23, 2019 at 10:23:55 AM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
Agreed.....what is the cost of an O2 refill vs. a bad outcome?!?!??

Poor physical health, smoking (my bad....don't harp....I get enough already....), lack of sleep, different start point (coastal pilot suddenly flying at Denver or similar....) etc.
In general, I see no real downside to excess O2 other than sorta hyperventilating.....not great, but the opposite is way worse.
When you go O2 low, first thing to go is higher thinking.....exactly what you need then.....

No....have not done an altitude chamber....
No....have not done much flying above 10K'ASL.....
Yes, did a gold climb with no external O2 to about 13.5K' on the eastern seaboard.

Personally, I use a Mountain Pulse-Ox system that I set to come at 10,000 ft which you usually reach in a few minutes in the high desert. People, simply, should not bring gliders not equipped with O2 into this environment.

I took an altitude chamber ride to 25,000 ft, but that was 40 years ago. And half the day was spent in the classroom discussing physiological effects. Now they only take you to 18,000. All of the comments about physical degradation are, of course, valid and a wise pilot pays attention to them, especially drugs, dehydration and sleep quality. The basic problem with pushing the limits are the consequences of going past them. Remember, most accidents a series of factors that align malevolently, not just a single one.

Tom

Tango Eight wrote on 7/23/2019 8:57 AM:
The smart guys are on O2 at 10,000 during the day and 5,000 at night. Most humans are measurably impaired at 12,500.

I might be even smarter: last year, I began using oxygen above 8000', when I
discovered I began a form of periodic breathing at about 8500'. It's easy to
detect with an oximeter, which showed my oxygen saturation varying between 95 and
90 over a 1 to 2 minute period. With my EDS turned on, I stay in the 96-97 range.

The periodic breathing is fairly common, I've read, among pilots and mountain
climbers. Another reason to carry and use an oximeter.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf

I have heard evidence that physical conditioning has a very low correlation with the tolerance of lower oxygen levels at altitude. This came from someone who regularly teaches classes in altitude oxygen deprivation and hypoxic conditions. He has done hundreds of demonstrations with class volunteers and says that other than regular smokers, asthma etc, everyone is different, no matter if you run 6 miles a day or sit in a chair playing video games eating Cheetos, makes no difference in predicting the altitude you will start going hypoxic.
As a result, I set the EDS at 5,000 feet.

On Tuesday, July 23, 2019 at 11:15:29 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Steve Koerner wrote on 7/23/2019 10:21 AM:
On a related note, if you run out of oxygen, you can get yourself some extra altitude margin in a pinch by pressure breathing. I rather discovered this while swimming laps. I could do better with a controlled pressurized exhale. I figured the same idea might transfer to soaring. I did some reading that supported the premise and then did some experimenting at altitude.. It definitely works (legalities aside). Having 45 years of western soaring under my belt, I have a better than average sense for my own personal oxygen requirements. My tentative conclusion is that, for me, pressure breathing is worth around three thousand feet. Certainly I'm not recommending pressure breathing in lieu of supplemental oxygen, but it might be a useful thing to know about just in case.

Are you talking about "pursed lips breathing"? That can raise my ox saturation 5
percentage points.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf

Yes, Eric. Exhaling against pursed lips increases air pressure in your lungs during a substantial portion of the breathing cycle. Under some flying circumstances and terrain scenarios, doing so could well be a much better plan of action compared to opening the dive brakes if your oxygen fails or runs out.

On Tuesday, July 23, 2019 at 1:28:42 PM UTC-6, Steve Koerner wrote:
On Tuesday, July 23, 2019 at 11:15:29 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Steve Koerner wrote on 7/23/2019 10:21 AM:
On a related note, if you run out of oxygen, you can get yourself some extra altitude margin in a pinch by pressure breathing. I rather discovered this while swimming laps. I could do better with a controlled pressurized exhale. I figured the same idea might transfer to soaring. I did some reading that supported the premise and then did some experimenting at altitude. It definitely works (legalities aside). Having 45 years of western soaring under my belt, I have a better than average sense for my own personal oxygen requirements. My tentative conclusion is that, for me, pressure breathing is worth around three thousand feet. Certainly I'm not recommending pressure breathing in lieu of supplemental oxygen, but it might be a useful thing to know about just in case.

Are you talking about "pursed lips breathing"? That can raise my ox saturation 5
percentage points.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf

Yes, Eric. Exhaling against pursed lips increases air pressure in your lungs during a substantial portion of the breathing cycle. Under some flying circumstances and terrain scenarios, doing so could well be a much better plan of action compared to opening the dive brakes if your oxygen fails or runs out.

It's called "PEEP". Positive End Expiratory Pressure. By blowing out through pursed lips, it increases the air pressure in the airways of the lungs, which is then transmitted to the alveoli (air sacks in the lungs). This increases the pressure that drives oxygen into the blood stream. Something to consider in an emergency, but don't rely on it regularly and don't use it to replace the regular use of supplemental oxygen at altitude.

On Monday, July 22, 2019 at 8:50:36 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
The other day a couple of pilots were treating 123.3 as their private chat line which I was forced to listen to so I could hear my friend's hourly position reports. One of the things one kept (repeatedly) talking about was having to descend to 12,500 to "reset" the 30 minute clock. This is entirely wrong: there is no "resetting" of the clock; it is a ONCE A FLIGHT exception, no doubt intended to give pilots w/o supplemental oxygen leeway in crossing high-altitude mountain passes. The governing FAR is 91.211:

§ 91.211 Supplemental oxygen.
(a)General. No person may operate a civil aircraft of U.S. registry -

(1) At cabin pressure altitudes above 12,500 feet (MSL) up to and including 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen for that part of the flight at those altitudes that is of more than 30 minutes duration;

(2) At cabin pressure altitudes above 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen during the entire flight time at those altitudes; and

(3) At cabin pressure altitudes above 15,000 feet (MSL) unless each occupant of the aircraft is provided with supplemental oxygen.

I turn my EDS on for 10,000 ft. But the wording in that regulation does not preclude several segments of flight between 12.5 and 14K. "that part of the flight at those altitudes" might include multiple segments. At the very least it is ambiguous. If you spend 1 minute at 12,501 then return to 12,499, surely you needn't land before bumping a second time to 12,501? Had it meant 30 minutes total, or only one continuous excursion, it would have been easy to write it that way.

I have been using, selling, installing and servicing oxygen systems for hang glider pilots and soaring pilots since 1991. My age is getting to be a factor, my field elevation is at 6,200 MSL (Moriarty, NM) with altitudes of 17,999 MSL on tap. I now set the MH EDS system to 5,000 and start huffing supplemental 02 about five minutes prior to launch. I have learned that it helps with my concentration on tow, especially during the turbulent and demanding midsummer conditions in the high desert. The amount of O2 used from 6,200 to release at around 8,000 and a climb to 10,000 is negligible.

On Tuesday, July 23, 2019 at 8:31:54 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I have been using, selling, installing and servicing oxygen systems for hang glider pilots and soaring pilots since 1991. My age is getting to be a factor, my field elevation is at 6,200 MSL (Moriarty, NM) with altitudes of 17,999 MSL on tap. I now set the MH EDS system to 5,000 and start huffing supplemental 02 about five minutes prior to launch. I have learned that it helps with my concentration on tow, especially during the turbulent and demanding midsummer conditions in the high desert. The amount of O2 used from 6,200 to release at around 8,000 and a climb to 10,000 is negligible.

I'm with Mark Mocho on this. As a midwest flat-lander I start O2 out west as soon as I am in the glider (one less thing to forget after tow). My aged red blood chemistry is just not up to handling the thin air at the 5,000+ft airports that I fly out of. My MH EDS is always set to D5 and sometimes late in a flight I change to R/M for 5-10 minutes as a pick me up.

Everyone needs to read the August 2018 issue of Soaring magazine issue on hypoxia by Dr. Dan Johnson, Jean-Marie Clement, Patrick McLaughlin, & Dr. Heini Schaffner - the idea that anyone would not understand the effects of hypoxia and the cumulative effects of high altitude flying without O2 is scary and incredible. There is ample information available to anyone as to the folly of ignoring lower O2 levels. It will open your eyes as to the need to start O2 at lower altitudes regardless of age. Hypoxia is not an on/off physiological event - the effects are cumulative. And what one person can "get away with" does not mean another person can, or the same person can the next flight - the effects are individual. Incipient hypoxia stars at relatively low altitudes, and impairment at higher altitudes and/or prolonged exposure can be catastrophic. Listen to the recording cited in the August Soaring magazine issue "XC Tips" article by Garret Willat (now posted on the SSA website). PEEP or pursed lip breathing, as John F. points out, is a "now" expedient technique that will temporarily increase O2 levels. If you have to use it, and don't have supplemental O2, you must descend NOW while you still have the ability to do so. The basic recommendation from the Soaring magazine article is to start O2 at 5kft, regardless of fitness level, etc. The o2 is cheap compared to the alternative. And for those who regularly fly at high altitudes (10 kft), of course you have a pulse oximeter along to periodically check your O2 saturation level.