ME-262 A-1a/U4 question

I was just reading a article showing a captured ME-262 A-1a/U4 with a
50mm cannon on its nose . Does anyone know what this variant was
supposed to be used for Anti-tank or anti-bomber? The only other thing
i know is that it was flown by a "Willi Herget"

"Prowlus" wrote in message
om...
I was just reading a article showing a captured ME-262 A-1a/U4 with a
50mm cannon on its nose . Does anyone know what this variant was
supposed to be used for Anti-tank or anti-bomber? The only other thing
i know is that it was flown by a "Willi Herget"

IRC it was intended to be used against heavy bombers such as
the B-17 and B-24. The idea was to have a gun large enough
that a single hit could destroy the target

Keith

I was just reading a article showing a captured ME-262 A-1a/U4 with a
50mm cannon on its nose . Does anyone know what this variant was
supposed to be used for Anti-tank or anti-bomber? The only other thing
i know is that it was flown by a "Willi Herget"

Willi the Tick was a well-respected nightfighter on conventional aircraft, but
when the Grand Finale approached, he used his rank to 'appropriate' on of the
Bk-armed jets. He did what several other aces did - he went without orders to
join Galland and his "squadron of experts (aces)" where he was welcomed with
open arms. He reported making three unsuccessful attacks with that huge
nose-mounted cannon, all without success due to g-forces causing the gun to
jam. These attacks were witnessed by B-26 crews over Austria and a shocked
P-51 pilot that got within a few yards of the menacing /U4.

As Keith pointed out, it was an anti-bomber modification.

v/r
Gordon
Stormbirds.com/recon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

nt (Krztalizer) wrote in message ...
I was just reading a article showing a captured ME-262 A-1a/U4 with a
50mm cannon on its nose . Does anyone know what this variant was
supposed to be used for Anti-tank or anti-bomber? The only other thing
i know is that it was flown by a "Willi Herget"

Willi the Tick was a well-respected nightfighter on conventional aircraft, but
when the Grand Finale approached, he used his rank to 'appropriate' on of the
Bk-armed jets. He did what several other aces did - he went without orders to
join Galland and his "squadron of experts (aces)" where he was welcomed with
open arms. He reported making three unsuccessful attacks with that huge
nose-mounted cannon, all without success due to g-forces causing the gun to
jam. These attacks were witnessed by B-26 crews over Austria and a shocked
P-51 pilot that got within a few yards of the menacing /U4.

As Keith pointed out, it was an anti-bomber modification.


From 'Flying Guns: World War 2' by Emmanuel Gustin and myself:

"An extremist approach to the armament problem was represented by a
single Me 262a 1a/U4 armed with the 50 mm MK 214 cannon in the nose;
the long barrel easily distinguished this aircraft. This mighty weapon
fired 1.5-kg shells at a muzzle velocity of 1100 m/s, and a hit would
easily destroy a bomber. But Major Willy Herget discovered that
although the cannon worked well enough on the ground, the
accelerations of flight jammed its feed mechanism. After his two
failed attempts to fire the MK 214 cannon in combat, the weapon was
abandoned. After his capture Göring reportedly derided the Me 262 with
a 50 mm cannon as a monstrosity."

and:

"The Luftwaffe was slow to adopt aircraft cannon in the 37+mm class,
but once they started they took to the concept with more enthusiasm
than anyone else. Three different guns saw service - the BK 3,7, BK 5
and BK 7,5, all by Rheinmetall-Borsig - and several more were being
developed at the end of the war. BK stood for Bordkanone, a term
reserved for this class of aircraft weapon. None of the service guns
was designed for aircraft in the first instance; the BK 3,7 was a
version of the FlaK 18 AA gun and retained the 37x263B ammunition
fired from 6, 8 or 12-round strips, the BK 5 (50x419R) was a KwK 39
tank gun with a 22-round annular autoloader fitted, and the BK 7,5
(75x715R) was similarly based on the PaK 40 anti-tank gun, which was
semi-automatic and fitted with a 12-round rotary magazine. All of
these weapons were large and heavy in comparison with purpose-designed
aircraft guns such as those used by the Soviet air force, and the
larger guns saw very little use.

One other 37 mm gun was experimentally fitted to aircraft; the more
advanced FlaK 43, using what was essentially a scaled-up MK 103
mechanism to raise the rate of fire to 250 rpm. This fired the same
ammunition as the FlaK 18, still only via 8-round strips. The gun was
fitted to two Me 410 and three Bf 110, and reportedly saw some action.

At the end of the war Germany was showing much interest in 50 and 55
mm calibre guns for air fighting, having determined that one hit from
such a weapon could be expected to down the heaviest bomber, but none
of them entered service. As with the 30 mm cannon, both low and high
velocity weapons were designed. The Rheinmetall-Borsig MK 112 was an
MK 108 scaled up to take a 55x175RB cartridge. It achieved test status
(trials continued in the USA after the war under the designation "57
mm T78") but was too late and development was not completed. The
belt-fed, 275 kg gun fired a 1.485 kg Minengeschoss shell at 600 m/s,
and could achieve 300 rpm. Krupp's unsuccessful competitor was the MK
412, a combined gas and recoil operated 55 mm gun which weighed 240 kg
and fired at 250-300 rpm. At the high-velocity end, the Mauser MK 214
A, like the BK 5, was based on the KwK 39 gun but with a much lighter
and more compact autoloading mechanism (total weight 490 kg) with a
belt feed and a higher rate of fire (160 rpm). This was built and
tested. At an earlier stage of development was the Rheinmetall-Borsig
MK 114, designed around high-velocity 55x450B ammunition (2.03 kg at
around 1,000 m/s). This weighed 700 kg and could fire at 150-180 rpm.
It competitor in the same calibre was the Mauser MK 214 B, which
weighed 650 kg."

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

nt (Krztalizer) wrote in message ...
I was just reading a article showing a captured ME-262 A-1a/U4 with a
50mm cannon on its nose . Does anyone know what this variant was
supposed to be used for Anti-tank or anti-bomber? The only other thing
i know is that it was flown by a "Willi Herget"

The MK-114 was also being considered for the Bv P.198.01:

http://www.luft46.com/bv/bvp198.html

Just "how" the MK-114 would be mounted in that configuration is questionable.

Rob

(Krztalizer) wrote in message
...
I was just reading a article showing a captured ME-262 A-1a/U4 with a
50mm cannon on its nose . Does anyone know what this variant was
supposed to be used for Anti-tank or anti-bomber? The only other thing
i know is that it was flown by a "Willi Herget"

The MK-114 was also being considered for the Bv P.198.01:

http://www.luft46.com/bv/bvp198.html

Just "how" the MK-114 would be mounted in that configuration is questionable.

Rob

Other than the fact that I didn't write a word of the quoted earlier post, I
have no problems with this reply. Rob, watch the attributions, please?

Gordon

(robert arndt) wrote in message . com...
SNIP flawed attribution
I was just reading a article showing a captured ME-262 A-1a/U4 with a
50mm cannon on its nose . Does anyone know what this variant was
supposed to be used for Anti-tank or anti-bomber? The only other thing
i know is that it was flown by a "Willi Herget"

The MK-114 was also being considered for the Bv P.198.01:

http://www.luft46.com/bv/bvp198.html

Just "how" the MK-114 would be mounted in that configuration is questionable.

Rob


The more interesting project was the Messerschmit Messerschmitt Me
P.1101/99 which had an armament of 1 x 75mm Pak 40 cannon firing
forward supplemented by the 5 Mk 112 55mm cannon of 300 rounds/minute.
This gun is different and I expect it would not have suffered the
jaming issues as it appears to have been a development of the 30mm Mk
108 of established aviation use.

http://www.luft46.com/mess/mep10199.html

It seems an interesting weapon. One hit would assuredly destroy a
bomber. The Oblique firing arrangement of 4 of the 5 guns may have
been intended to be a triggered by a proximity fuse. The velocity
suggests a range of only 350-400m or so.


Note the eloquent air intakes on this aircraft which were due to the
Heinkel Hirth He S11 turbojets low diameter and abillity to igest
turbulent air.

The more interesting project was the Messerschmit Messerschmitt Me
P.1101/99

That is obviously a follow-on to my "Holy Grail", the HG III. We know one was
substantially completed, but no Wrk n. was assigned and no photographs have
surfaced. Had the same embedded engine design, same tail, wingsweep, etc. I
bet the same engineer came up with it.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.