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AIR-2A Genie on F-104 true or false ?



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 16th 04, 01:40 PM
Alistair Gunn
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Dave Kearton twisted the electrons to say:
"Howard Berkowitz" wrote in message
...
||
| Unbidden, I have a flash thought of referring to the F-104 as the
| dachshund of high-performance aircraft. ;-)
Quite apt.....and fortunate that Kelly Johnson left off the genitalia.


les barkerDachshunds with erections, can't climb stairs!/les barker
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...
  #12  
Old August 16th 04, 02:02 PM
Dweezil Dwarftosser
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Prowlus wrote:

Is this a genuine capability for a Starfighter? I would have thought
it wouldn't have the loading capacity for such a weapon or even the
software to launch it unlike the F-102 or F-106


Heheh. Software??? No - just lots of relays and some permission
switches.
If ever there were a "point-and-shoot" nuke, the unguided Genie
rocket was it.

After seeing the bomb loads the Euros would hang on an F-104,
I can easily imagine TWO genies, one below each wing - but
not on the centerline.
  #13  
Old August 16th 04, 02:49 PM
Peter Stickney
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In article ,
(Prowlus) writes:
I was watching this programme called "flying through time" which this
week was about the century series fighters from f-100 to f-106 and it
mentioned that the f-104 toted the genie rocket as one of its weapon
options .
Now this programme usually gives info whilst givin the wrong imagery
or both but it did show a zipper with a weird retractable centerline
pylon supposedly for a big honking genie as so the programme is leadin
the viewer to believe .
Is this a genuine capability for a Starfighter? I would have thought
it wouldn't have the loading capacity for such a weapon or even the
software to launch it unlike the F-102 or F-106


There were proposals to put Genies on a bunch of aircraft, such as the
English Electric Lightning. If you're playing Global Thermonuclear
War, the Genie solves a lot of problems - it's unjammable, the target
can't jink out of the lethal radius, and you don't have all the
complications and failures of a proximity fuze (Which is still a very
difficult problem in a missile, and it should defeat any salvage
fuzing on the Bad Guy's bombs. (Rigging the bomb so that it goes off
if it hits the ground anywhere in your territory)

There was a test program for launching Genies from the F-104A, but, as
others have noted, it wasn't proceeded with. The program did,
however, evolve into a NASA study for using jets as the first stage of
a rocket system. The F-104A. the launching gear, and some of teh
effects on performance are detailed in NASA Technical Note D-1279,
"Some Operational Aspects of Using a High-Performance Airplane as a
First-Stage Booster for Air-Launching Solid-Fuel Sounding Rockets",
Horton and Messing, Jan. 1963, available online at:
http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/DTRS/1963/citation.html

There were 5 operational sounding rocket launches under the name of
ALSOR, using a Deacon sounding rocket as the second stage. Altitudes
of 100-116 km were reached.

This program also led to some confusion about the F-4 and Genies. A
later followon to this program was ALARR, which used an F-4 as teh
launching aircraft, and time-expired Genie airframes and motors as the
sounding rocket. Photos of the F-4 carrying the Genie shaped ALARR
have been presented as proof that the F-4 was qualified to carry the
AIR-2, which is not the case - The F-4's radar and FCS couldn't, in
its stock form, compute the launch and intercept points for the Genie,
or perform the electrical octoflugerons needed to set the Genie's
timers. (It wasn't anything as simple as a mechanical clock.)
There wasn't any real desire to put the Genie on the F-4 - when you've
got 4 fairly reliable AIM-7s aboard, you don't need a Genie.

It's pretty much a given that these studies, and the Bold Orion, High
Virgo, and Caleb projects were teh foundation for the U.S.A.F. air
launched ASAT of the 1980s. (High Virgo actually intercepted a
satellite)

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster
  #14  
Old August 16th 04, 03:42 PM
Andrew Chaplin
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Peter Stickney wrote:

[The] F-4's radar and FCS couldn't, in
its stock form, compute the launch and intercept points for the Genie,
or perform the electrical octoflugerons needed to set the Genie's
timers.


"Octoflugerons"?! Okay, I'll bite: WTF is an octoflugeron when it's at
home?
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
  #15  
Old August 16th 04, 05:27 PM
Peter Stickney
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In article ,
Andrew Chaplin writes:
Peter Stickney wrote:

[The] F-4's radar and FCS couldn't, in
its stock form, compute the launch and intercept points for the Genie,
or perform the electrical octoflugerons needed to set the Genie's
timers.


"Octoflugerons"?! Okay, I'll bite: WTF is an octoflugeron when it's at
home?


The name my instructors drilled into me for an impressive, although
unintended maneuver, such as, say, spinning over the top while trying
to core a thermal (Not being too coordated, and stalling the upside
wing (Left turn, right wing, for example. It's Natures Way of telling
you to pay more attention. Or pulling too much over the top of a loop
in a T-6 and snapping out of it. Wake turbulence can be good for
premium Octoflugeron performance.

In the case of the AIR-2, the timer for detonation was basically a
specially tuned RLC (Resistance, Inductance, Capacitor) circuit. The
Fire COntrol System of the launching airplane figured out how long the
rocket would take to reach the target, and charge the capacitors to
the appropriate value. If all the appropriate conditions were met,
the warhead would detonate when the voltage dropped to a certain
level. The FCS for a Genie equipped airplane had to be able to track
the target, compute the proper pull-up point for the preferred snap-up
attack - it could also attack co-altitude - and figure the launch
point and flight time. With a flight time on the order of 5-10
seconds, a 2G maneuvering target like a bomber wasn't going to get out
of the way, once the rocket fired. The interceptor would be breaking
away and down, with the cockpit opposite the target. Since the Genie
required no guidance, you didn't have to follow it in. (Very much
Lanch and Leave) The AIM-26 (Nuclear Falcon, whic was an option for
some F-102s in the early/mid-'60s) mist have been a real fun trip.
The warhead was very small, with a kill radius of about 250 ft.
(About the same as a big AAM like a Sparrow or Phoenix) One of the
problems with the Falcon series was that they weren't able to work out
a proximity fuze - the missile had to actually hit the target to
detonate. (And they don't call them miss-iles for nothing) Making a
proximity fuze that will work through the range of aspect angles and
closing speeds that a missile has (As opposed to an AAA shell, which
is always coming up from below at some huge speed, and, since its dirt
cheap, tends to be fired in swarms) is a difficult task - you've got
to integrate the closing speeds, miss distance, the speed that the
warhead fragments will be travelling, the shape of the fragment cloud
- and, for all I know, whether the missile techs had garlic for lunch,
in order to have the fuze determine the right point to set things off.

With a "fragment cloud" that travels at pretty much the speed of
light, as with the radiation from a baby nuke, you don't have that
problem. You do, however, have to keep teh nose pointed toward the
target enough for the missile to see the radar reflection and guide.
So, you've got to fly toward your nuclear blast, once you've pulled
the trigger. Not fun at all - teh light from the fireball would still
be enough to blind you, if the flash curtains aren't as good as they
think they are.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster
  #16  
Old August 17th 04, 03:43 AM
John Keeney
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"Dave Kearton" wrote in
message ...
"Steve Jahn" wrote in message
...
| According to the book Warbird Tech F-104
| The Missile was fired about five times from the F-104. The airplane was
also
| ground tested while hanging from a crane. The test was a Skunk works
| project.
| Steve


Well I sit corrected. Thanks


Do you know whether it was fired from the centreline or a wing station?


Center line, from a drop down trapeze.


  #17  
Old August 17th 04, 07:10 PM
Don Harstad
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"Steve Jahn" wrote in message
...
According to the book Warbird Tech F-104
The Missile was fired about five times from the F-104. The airplane was

also
ground tested while hanging from a crane. The test was a Skunk works
project.
Steve
"John Keeney" wrote in message
...

"Prowlus" wrote in message
om...
I was watching this programme called "flying through time" which this
week was about the century series fighters from f-100 to f-106 and it
mentioned that the f-104 toted the genie rocket as one of its weapon
options .
Now this programme usually gives info whilst givin the wrong imagery
or both but it did show a zipper with a weird retractable centerline
pylon supposedly for a big honking genie as so the programme is leadin
the viewer to believe .
Is this a genuine capability for a Starfighter? I would have thought
it wouldn't have the loading capacity for such a weapon or even the
software to launch it unlike the F-102 or F-106


That's what the trapeze was for but I don't believe it was bought.



That's it! The tape I saw was of the F-104 suspended from a crane of some
sort, with the trapeze and Genie operated that way. Thanks!

Don H.


  #18  
Old August 17th 04, 09:43 PM
Lyle
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On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:10:11 -0500, "Don Harstad"
wrote:


"Steve Jahn" wrote in message
...
According to the book Warbird Tech F-104
The Missile was fired about five times from the F-104. The airplane was

also
ground tested while hanging from a crane. The test was a Skunk works
project.
Steve
"John Keeney" wrote in message
...

"Prowlus" wrote in message
om...
I was watching this programme called "flying through time" which this
week was about the century series fighters from f-100 to f-106 and it
mentioned that the f-104 toted the genie rocket as one of its weapon
options .
Now this programme usually gives info whilst givin the wrong imagery
or both but it did show a zipper with a weird retractable centerline
pylon supposedly for a big honking genie as so the programme is leadin
the viewer to believe .
Is this a genuine capability for a Starfighter? I would have thought
it wouldn't have the loading capacity for such a weapon or even the
software to launch it unlike the F-102 or F-106

That's what the trapeze was for but I don't believe it was bought.



That's it! The tape I saw was of the F-104 suspended from a crane of some
sort, with the trapeze and Genie operated that way. Thanks!

Don H.

just because a plane dosent carry a certain load, dosent mean it cant.
case in point, F-16A and the sparrow missle. they were shooting
Aim-7's from the YF-16 prototype, and basically all F-16 before the
ADV version for the ANG came into beging was able to use the sparrow
with minor software modifacation.
 




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