Engine over TBO at purchase

"Newps" wrote in message
news


Mike Spera wrote:

Ah Bull****.



If the engine overhaul number is $14k, I would add another $5k for:
muffler O/H.

$400 for a new one.


alternator O/H,

$300.


starter O/H,

$250.


fuel and oil hoses,

$50 maybe for hoses, plus time.


scat
tubing,

Hardly anything.

Then too... http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/187727-1.html

/excerpt
The Savvy Aviator #8: Overhaul Overdone
August 4, 2004
By Mike Busch ,
Columnist


When an instrument, accessory or other appliance stops working on our
airplanes, we generally get it overhauled or exchange it for an overhauled
exchange unit, right? Wrong, says AVweb's Mike Busch, who argues that
overhaul is often unnecessary and a big waste of money, and offers several
illustrative cases-in-point.

Why are so many aircraft owners and A&P mechanics "spring-loaded to the
overhaul position"? I think the word "overhaul" might be the most overused
and misunderstood word in the lexicon of aircraft maintenance.

Last week, I was talking to a friend who had just put his airplane in the
shop for its annual inspection. I asked him if he'd submitted any squawks
for the shop to fix. He replied, "My nose strut hasn't been feeling right
and it's been weeping fluid, so I had them overhaul it."

I pointed out to my friend that I was sure the shop hadn't really
"overhauled" his leaky nose strut. The shop would have disassembled the
strut, cleaned it, replaced the O-ring seals with new ones, then reassembled
the strut and serviced it hydraulic fluid and compressed nitrogen. That's a
"reseal" or a "repair" but not an "overhaul."

/end excerpt


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

DHead wrote:
Hi group.
I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.
The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking price to
have the engine O/H'd.
I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.
The avionics are ok, but could be improved on. My biggest concern at this
point is the engine time.
Any opinions on what is fair to me and the seller concerning allowances for
the engine O/H?

$5K off for the overhaul is not reasonable. Should be closer to $15-20K.

I have no heartburn with buying a plane with a runout engine, provided it is
priced appropriately. It gives you the chance to get a quality overhaul that is
supervised by you. Do not let the seller do a cheap overhaul and pass the
problems along to you.

Be sure you know which engine is in the Sundowner. I think some Sundowners have
a geared engine that is rare and parts are hard to find and it may be
un-overhaul-able. Sorry if I raise an alarm unnecessarily. Others will correct me.

Dave

DHead wrote:

The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking price to
have the engine O/H'd.
I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.

That depends on the asking price. Most owners have already heavily discounted
the aircraft to allow for the near-runout. He should be offering you about
$14,000 lower than book value for this aircraft with a newly rebuilt engine. Bet
he's doing better than that already.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:qQAHe.7250$r12.4363@trndny04...
DHead wrote:

The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking
price to
have the engine O/H'd.
I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.

That depends on the asking price. Most owners have already heavily
discounted
the aircraft to allow for the near-runout. He should be offering you about
$14,000 lower than book value for this aircraft with a newly rebuilt
engine. Bet
he's doing better than that already.

I would take that bet.

Most owners don't comprehend what TBO is and what it represents.

If he's offering $5K off based on a $14K O/H, he's either very ignorant, or
he's full of it.

Matt Barrow wrote:

If he's offering $5K off based on a $14K O/H, he's either very ignorant, or
he's full of it.

It *still* depends on what the price is. A $5k discount on a price of $45k beats
the hell out of a $15k discount on $60k, especially if the book value (with the
runout engine) is higher than the asking price.

I priced my Maule at $17,000 less than book value. And I still had some asshole
complaining that it needed $12,000 worth of work. To be worth book. And wanting
another $12k knocked off.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 02:25:26 GMT, George Patterson
wrote:

That depends on the asking price. Most owners have already heavily discounted
the aircraft to allow for the near-runout. He should be offering you about
$14,000 lower than book value for this aircraft with a newly rebuilt engine. Bet
he's doing better than that already.

Exactly the point I tried to make a few days ago. But few seem to grasp
it.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:W6BHe.7256$r12.2252@trndny04...
Matt Barrow wrote:

If he's offering $5K off based on a $14K O/H, he's either very ignorant,
or
he's full of it.

It *still* depends on what the price is. A $5k discount on a price of $45k
beats
the hell out of a $15k discount on $60k, especially if the book value
(with the
runout engine) is higher than the asking price.

Half right...it depends on the book value. From there, you adjust. Many
will try to fleece a buy by making a great sounding offer, say $5K towards
an overhaul. Another is to portray the aircraft as a "8" or something. Other
than brand new, everything is a "5" and you go from there.

When I bought mine it had a nice interior, but it was still six years old
and the seller tried to claim it was an "8".


I priced my Maule at $17,000 less than book value. And I still had some
asshole
complaining that it needed $12,000 worth of work. To be worth book. And
wanting
another $12k knocked off.

Did he know the book value? Many don't. Also, many don't comprehend what TBO
really is.

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 02:25:26 GMT, George Patterson
wrote:

That depends on the asking price. Most owners have already heavily
discounted
the aircraft to allow for the near-runout.

And many don't. In any case, they shouldn't unless they explain it
specifically rather than making assumptions. It's those sort of
around-the-corner adjustments that can lead to trouble and it's the sort of
ploy that many of use a re to used to seeing from flaky car salesmen.


He should be offering you about
$14,000 lower than book value for this aircraft with a newly rebuilt
engine. Bet
he's doing better than that already.

Exactly the point I tried to make a few days ago. But few seem to grasp
it.

Rather assumptive given the lack of information provided.

Matt Barrow wrote:

Did he know the book value?

No, which is exactly my point. Lots of people here are yammering that the seller
should take $14k off the *selling price* 'cause of the old engine. No. He should
be taking some amount off the *book* value. Unless you know what that is, you
can have no idea whether the selling price is too high or not.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:hULHe.2231$b91.1924@trndny06...
Matt Barrow wrote:

Did he know the book value?

No, which is exactly my point.

Actually, he never said one way or the other.

Lots of people here are yammering that the seller
should take $14k off the *selling price* 'cause of the old engine. No. He
should
be taking some amount off the *book* value. Unless you know what that is,
you
can have no idea whether the selling price is too high or not.

And, again, he never said yea or nay.

The seller, AIR, didn't offer an adjustment from the bookprice (as you
suggest), but offered an adjustment based on the TBO of the engine which was
roughly 35% of he O/H cost.

Given the fellow was a student, a newbie, I may be wrong, but I'd guess
(given my skeptical nature) the seller saw a plum ripe for the picking.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO