IFR ticket vs. professional training (MD, PhD...)

"G. Sylvester" wrote in message
m...

I got into a discussion with an non-pilot MD comparing
a professional degree versus flying...
This person I had the discussion with
is under the impression of flying is probably more like driving and
anybody
can do it...
So the big question, compared to a your profession, how does flying
VFR and IFR compare with regards to training, proficiency, continued
training, mental challenge and anything else that comes to mind?

There are two comparisons in question he flying vs. driving, and flying
vs. professional training.

Flying is harder than driving, in several respects. There are important
aspects of flying that are initially counterintuitive (not just pulling the
nose up if you're about to land short, for instance). Flying (safely)
requires more knowledge about weather conditions and the vehicle's
interaction with them. There are more emergency procedures that need to be
instantly deployable. Navigation while flying is more complicated than while
driving (except perhaps with GPS). Flying requires more multitasking. There
are more regulations to be familiar with when flying.

But there's no comparison between flying and professional training. Flying
requires only a high-school student's knowledge, skill, and judgment (that's
why we license 16-year-olds to solo, and 17-year-olds to carry passengers).
Getting a PPL requires perhaps a month's full-time study (usually spread out
over a much longer period, though); an instrument rating is perhaps another
month. Compared to the years of complex study needed for an MD or a PhD,
flight training is a relaxing diversion. That's why retired doctors and
scientists often become pilots, but retired pilots seldom become doctors or
scientists.

--Gary

"G. Sylvester" wrote in message
...

I've had the pleasure of knowing a couple very distinguished
physicians, and
they are among the most humble and self-effacing people I know, far more
so
than a lot of corporate VPs, lawyers, and real estate agents who have no
remote right to their arrogance.

You don't deal with many neurosurgeons. The word ego is defined by them.
....not all, but 98% of them. They are probably the F22 and F116
drivers of our bunch. ;-)

Actually one of the ones I was thinking of is a chief of neurosurgery at a
large hospital, and had served as president of the Massachusetts Medical
Society (which publishes the NEJM). I suppose he's in that 2%.

Arrogance is annoying wherever it's found but I resent it a lot less in
neurosurgeons et. al. than in so many other less-deserved areas.

Cheers,
-cwk.

I don't know how much of this is avionics (Garmin
530/430, GPS roll steering, Flight Director, dual HSI's and RMI's) and
a
stable airplane vs how much is applicable to experience.

I suspect it's mostly flight experience. My experience and outlook is
rather similar to yours, except that I do my recurrent training in the
airplane. My recurrent training cycle is about 3-5 hours every 6-10
months, mostly under the hood or in IMC. Last time I stretched it a
bit to fit in the ATP. I don't have any of those gadgets in my
airplane (not even a single HSI) and don't miss them. I find that an
approach is IMC is no particular challenge unless I'm doing something
unusual, like a full procedure NDB to mins where I've decided to
actually fly the ADF needle rather than LORAN/GPS.

Michael

The MD equivalent for aviation might be an
ATP/A&P who once worked as an air traffic controller and has an
aerospace
engineering degree.

I think even that is being way generous unless there is way more to
being an ATCS than to being an ATP/A&P.

I have a PhD in engineering and use it professionally. I am also and
ATP/A&P recreationally, and I think the training and skull sweat
required to get to that level in aviation doesn't even come close to
what it takes to get a BS in engineering, never mind the PhD. In fact,
I know at least one ATP/A&P who flunked out of engineering school.

When it comes to the private/instrument, I think the professional
equivalent might be something along the lines of those 3 month training
courses required to become a VCR repairman - and then only if it's done
right, rather than just meeting minimum requirements.

Michael

I happen to be one of those physicians, and also work as a surgeon in Level
I trauma center. Additionally I also had an additional six years of graduate
school and research training along with my multi instrument rating. My
flying time is spent between cross countries in a twin or more fun doing
aerobatics.

Regardless, there is no comparison between the rigors of medical training,
especially surgery, and flight training. As a resident, and still today we
often have to stay up an entire night operating or monitoring a patient who
is gravely ill or injured. There are times when we need to make immediate
decisions regarding the need to do something that might save someone's life
or limb.

Some may call this arrogance, but some times this is created from the
necessity of having the confidence to make critical decisions in the face of
crisis situations. Lack of confidence and indecisiveness can lead to fatal
delays.

The pressures and stresses of making these decisions is much greater than
seeing the ground rushing up at 200k while flying acro- there is simply no
comparison.

Interestingly, while working as a flight surgeon in a fighter unit, I saw
the same attitudes in the pilots- some people called it arrogance, but most
would agree that it was confidence from having to carry out a difficult and
stressful job.

My airplane partner is a neurosurgeon and he is a lot less arrogant then
I am!! I guess he is in the 2% too... :-)

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
N4443H Mooney '79 M20J

Colin W Kingsbury wrote:

"G. Sylvester" wrote in message
...

I've had the pleasure of knowing a couple very distinguished

physicians, and

they are among the most humble and self-effacing people I know, far more

so

than a lot of corporate VPs, lawyers, and real estate agents who have no
remote right to their arrogance.

You don't deal with many neurosurgeons. The word ego is defined by them.
....not all, but 98% of them. They are probably the F22 and F116
drivers of our bunch. ;-)


Actually one of the ones I was thinking of is a chief of neurosurgery at a
large hospital, and had served as president of the Massachusetts Medical
Society (which publishes the NEJM). I suppose he's in that 2%.

Arrogance is annoying wherever it's found but I resent it a lot less in
neurosurgeons et. al. than in so many other less-deserved areas.

Cheers,
-cwk.

Jon Kraus wrote:

My airplane partner is a neurosurgeon and he is a lot less arrogant then
I am!! I guess he is in the 2% too... :-)

Or you are just WAY too arrogant. :-)


Matt

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 01:08:20 GMT, "G. Sylvester"
wrote:


I got into a discussion with an non-pilot MD comparing
a professional degree versus flying.

snip
So the big question, compared to a your profession, how does flying
VFR and IFR compare with regards to training, proficiency, continued
training, mental challenge and anything else that comes to mind? No
need to convince me but more to convince the non-pilot. In particular
I'd like to hear from the professions that require advanced degrees.

You don't have to get as far as the advanced degrees.
As someone else already said, aviation is a technical field.

Look at it this way.
PPL Ground school: one term, one class.
Practical experience to get ready to test: about the equivalent in
hours of one class, one term.
Instrument rating: An additional class one term for flight and one
class for books.

Overall: 4 one term classes.
I would liken flying more as an art than mechanical endeavor though.
True, there are those who will never get beyond the mechanical phase
of flying, but to those who do it is like music.

However, going beyond the basic private with the instrument rating
takes more learning and more time. If your add up the flying hours
required to reach ATP (and get a job) it's probably close to the same
as getting a bachelors degree.

Continued training is a fact of life in many professions so I'd not
set aviation apart in that respect.

As far as flying IFR Vs my job: With only me and maybe my wife and/or
a couple of passengers my decisions and competency affect only them
and maybe a few people on the ground if I really screw up.

As a project manager in industry and although primarily a computer
jockey, the ramifications of a mistake in process control or quality
control could affect thousands of individuals. Some mistakes could
result in the evacuation of many people from their homes.

The same is true for many of the Chemical and Electrical Engineers I
worked with. I've seen things go amiss where the engineers were
truely happy a particular plant was out in the country.

As far as individual responsibility and pressure, I'd rate flying in
solid IMC no different than going into work through rush hour traffic
during a storm. Actually, I don't think I'd rate single pilot IMC as
any where near that stressful.

I have never felt any undue pressure flying in IMC (except as a
student). Possibly as I had some very thorough instructors and lots
of time in actual right down to minimums prior to taking the PTS to
get the rating, I feel much more comfortable than many.

I much prefer to fly cross country IFR now days as it makes things
much simpler. Of course I still pick the smaller airports as my choice
for destinations. It puts me up higher and *generally* out of the see
and avoid crowd in high density areas. Of course it never takes away
that responsibility.

So, to directly answer the question: Only going through the PPL with
the instrument rating is no where near as time consuming or difficult
on an overall basis than getting a Bachelor of Science degree, let
alone Masters or PHD. BUT this is sorta the proverbial, Apples to
Oranges comparison.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Gerald Sylvester

Hi Gerald,
As I sat yesterday and watched my wife get another sonogram on our now
T-minus-12-weeks old fetus, your post came to mind.

The Field of Medicine is very complex and covers a wide variety of
topics. To become a physician, one must go through years of rigorous
training, from learning theory like the scientific method, to techniques
like suturing, to learning biology to be able to recognize and put
together the pieces of that puzzle - the human body and spirit.

There's no question in my mind that it requires an inordinate amount of
discipline, training, wisdom, and talent to become a doctor, let alone a
good one. It can barely be compared to what it takes to become a pilot.

A better comparison might be to the Sonogram Technician who took the
beautiful pictures of my unborn child.

She sat in front of what is basically a PC with a trackball and a few
extra buttons. She took a small handheld echo transceiver device and
pushed it onto my wife's belly as she watched the pictures on the
screen, and used the trackball and buttons to measure and take pictures
of the various parts of the baby's body - the head, abdomen, femur,
heart, kidneys, diaphragm, even the aorta and certain blood vessels.

Your friend's statement that "flying is probably more like driving and
anybody can do it" is not untrue. By the same token, doing a complete
biophysical on a fetus with a sonogram is probably just like surfing the
web, and anyone can do that too. For that matter, anyone who can cut
their steak at dinner can probably use a scalpel. But does that really
qualify them to be a brain surgeon?

The technique for flying a trimmed plane straight and level is not very
different from driving. I might even say it's easier than driving. But
there is much more to being a pilot than flying a trimmed plane straight
and level. Just as there is much more to being a sonogram technician
than being able to swivel a trackball, push a button, and have an
opposable thumb to hold the echo transceiver.

A sonogram technician needs to know how to navigate the images she sees
on her screen and use the control surfaces properly to ensure that she
gets the pictures that are required. She needs to be able to recognize
anomolies to ensure that if something is not correct, she gets the right
pictures so the MD can properly diagnose it. She needs to learn a series
of rules and procedures for ensuring the privacy, security, and safety
of the patient who she is working on.

In the same way. a pilot needs to be able to navigate so he knows how
to find point B after leaving point A. He needs to be educated in a
large number of laws and procedures for making sure he gets there
safely. He needs to be able to recognize a variety of anomolies - from
crosswind operations to engine fires, and deal with them properly. He
needs to know how to communate with

Even for driving, many of the same skills are required - navigation,
rules and procedures, safety, even communication (eg: turn signals).
However, because we all do so much driving, I think we take it for
granted.

So next time you talk to your MD friend, ask him why anyone who knows
how to trim the fat off of a piece of steak couldn't do his job. And
maybe for a moment, his ego will stand aside and he'll realize that when
it comes down to it, we're all just people learning skills that most
anyone can do if they acquire the same knowledge and experience.



"G. Sylvester" wrote in
m:


I got into a discussion with an non-pilot MD comparing
a professional degree versus flying.

My background, BS and MS from the top 2 bioengineering programs
in the US. (note, I put *much* more weight to experience over letters
after a name including my own). Flying-wise, I have a PPL and
about 33 hours into my IFR ticket. I should be able to complete
it in under 45 so I'm probably ahead of the curve but a I gotta put
much of this on my book and mental preparation before each
flight and ahead of time that others didn't commit to. I plan
on doing this for the challenge, excitement and unique lifestyle
of being a pilot. I might, in fact, probably will become a CFI(I)
but not full time. We'll see. If someone pays me $10 (or better
yet $500,000) to fly their challenger or Citation to wherever I want
to go, I'll consider. ;-) I've been in professional challenging
situations and none have come close to IFR in IMC.

Overall, my flying experience is just like everyone elses. It is
challenging but by the time you get your ticket and after that
still challenging as it is a never ending battle with learning to stay
ahead of the plane.
The IFR ticket is definitely a step above that as the consequences
is a LOT greater. It is a licence to kill and there is a NEVER ending
true battle with learning everything to save the asses to which the
plane is strapped to. IFR is and will always be for me, the
non-professional, challenging. Certainly after my training, my head
hurts from the concentration level required. All of this is
absolutely impossible to explain to a non-pilot...even a non-IFR pilot
it is difficult.

Back to the original question. This person I had the discussion with
is under the impression of flying is probably more like driving and
anybody can do it. This person is the typical MD, their way is the
only way and they
are the only ones who do it right and no one else can comprehend (I
work for a medical device company and have dealt with hundreds of
neurosurgeons, oncologists and medical physicists around the world).

So the big question, compared to a your profession, how does flying
VFR and IFR compare with regards to training, proficiency, continued
training, mental challenge and anything else that comes to mind? No
need to convince me but more to convince the non-pilot. In particular
I'd like to hear from the professions that require advanced degrees.

Gerald Sylvester

Look at it this way.
PPL Ground school: one term, one class.
Practical experience to get ready to test: about the equivalent in
hours of one class, one term.
Instrument rating: An additional class one term for flight and one
class for books.

Another point I forgot to make originally was that most classes you
take during undergraduate and even graduate programs have no value
to your final profession. I took 7 semesters of math above calculus.
When was the last time I took a derivative? Ummm, a long time ago.
I use the concept but I certainly didn't need 7 semesters of math.
So with PPL and so far with the IFR, 95% of everything you learn is
practical and therefore the training is a lot more efficient.


Gerald Sylvester