IR written Primary/Secondary instrument questions

I think the question was "Are you a pilot? If so, instrument rated?"

You didn't answer the question(s).

Your answers, though interesting, do not appear to be relevant or the same
as what the dogma of the FAA states.
MTBF, while interesting, has nothing to do with the information the
instrument(s) show.

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

"William W. Plummer" wrote in
message
news:6eUYb.354452$na.523893@attbi_s04...
Tarver, Are you a pilot? Instrument Rated?

I am an airplane systems engineer.

Thanks, Richard. I was trying to find out if Tarver has any authority to
comment on instrument flying. He has not received the training and doesn't
understand the issues and thus, lacks credibilty.

"Richard Hertz" wrote in message
...
I think the question was "Are you a pilot? If so, instrument rated?"

You didn't answer the question(s).

Your answers, though interesting, do not appear to be relevant or the same
as what the dogma of the FAA states.
MTBF, while interesting, has nothing to do with the information the
instrument(s) show.

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

"William W. Plummer" wrote in
message
news:6eUYb.354452$na.523893@attbi_s04...
Tarver, Are you a pilot? Instrument Rated?

I am an airplane systems engineer.

I believe you are confusing the original question regarding the FAA exam
questions on primary/secondary instruments. This is not a Boeing 777 with
primary/backup flight control computers and instruments with differing
specified requirements for MTBF. In that context *all* flight instruments in a
typical GA (as tested on the FAA IR written) are "primary instruments." The
primary/supporting questions refer to which information is most relevent to the pilot
during a particular flight manuver or attitude.

Tarver Engineering wrote:
: Fact, but nonsequitor.

: Not exactly. In fact, my reason is why FAA tends to insist on certain
: equipments for an approach.

Quite correct... where "equipment" can be (but not limited to), VOR, DME, LOC,
GS, GPS, Loran, etc... that could be construed as having "primary/secondary"
functionality. For example, "Hrm... NAV1 seems to have died... let's use NAV2." The
*FLIGHT INSTRUMENTS* are required for IFR flight... i.e. altimeter, rate-of-turn,
airspeed, etc.


: He's not using primary in the same way you are.
: In your context, all of the instruments are "primary flight instruments."

: No, each instrument system has it's own level of certification and
: acceptable MTBF.

Also true. Also irrelevent.

: In the context of the FAA pedantry for the instrument knowledge test,
: those instruments are divided into "primary" and "supporting" role for
: each flight regime they list. What is a primary instrument in one
: regime
: is a supporting in others.

: The secondary instrument gives the operator a cross check capability and may
: be of a lower reliability.

Almost true. WRT your primary/secondary equipment argument (think NAV1/NAV2),
this may be the case. WRT FAA's definition of "primary/supporting" flight
instruments, not so much. Cross-check: maybe. Lower reliability: perhaps. Slightly
different information that can be interpretted to obtain equivalent information to the
primary instrument: absolutely.... that's the point.

-Cory
--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

"William W. Plummer" wrote in message
news:743Zb.13008$Xp.74133@attbi_s54...
Thanks, Richard. I was trying to find out if Tarver has any authority to
comment on instrument flying. He has not received the training and
doesn't
understand the issues and thus, lacks credibilty.

I'll keep that in mind next time I write a page for someone's POH.

If you want to disagree with FAA on instruments, forget about using me as a
proxy.

wrote in message
...
I believe you are confusing the original question regarding the FAA exam
questions on primary/secondary instruments. This is not a Boeing 777 with
primary/backup flight control computers and instruments with differing
specified requirements for MTBF.

I am not the least bit confused.

I have never seen a POH that discusses instrument flight. (Note - my
experience is limited to GA, so maybe someone can tell me if the 777 POH and
all other material discuss how to fly IFR. I doubt that they do, but I
could be mistaken. I don't doubt that there is a volume of information that
uses the words primary, secondary, MTBF, etc - but that is not the same as
what is being discussed here). While you, Mr. Tarver Engineering, may be
the world's foremost expert on cool electronic gear for the big boys' jets
and have the FAA knocking at your door to find all the answers to
everything, I don't think what you are discussing is the same thing as the
original poster's (and most other replies) content. (Apparently you hold
your ideas in very high regard. Technically you sound very competent, but
you are consistently a bit off the subject that is being discussed on this
thread.)

Have you read "Instrument Flying Handbook?" (FAA-H-8083-15 - specifically
chapter 4 and the "Primary and Supporting Method sections?"

"For any maneuver or condition of flight, the pitch, bank, and power control
requirements are most clearly indicated by certain instruments. the
instruments that provide the most pertinent and essential information will
be referred to as primary instruments. Supporting instruments back up and
supplement the information shown on the primary instruments."

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

"William W. Plummer" wrote in
message
news:743Zb.13008$Xp.74133@attbi_s54...
Thanks, Richard. I was trying to find out if Tarver has any authority
to
comment on instrument flying. He has not received the training and
doesn't
understand the issues and thus, lacks credibilty.

I'll keep that in mind next time I write a page for someone's POH.

If you want to disagree with FAA on instruments, forget about using me as
a
proxy.

"Richard Hertz" wrote in message
...
I have never seen a POH that discusses instrument flight. (Note - my
experience is limited to GA, so maybe someone can tell me if the 777 POH
and
all other material discuss how to fly IFR. I doubt that they do, but I
could be mistaken. I don't doubt that there is a volume of information
that
uses the words primary, secondary, MTBF, etc - but that is not the same as
what is being discussed here). While you, Mr. Tarver Engineering, may be
the world's foremost expert on cool electronic gear for the big boys' jets
and have the FAA knocking at your door to find all the answers to
everything, I don't think what you are discussing is the same thing as the
original poster's (and most other replies) content. (Apparently you hold
your ideas in very high regard. Technically you sound very competent, but
you are consistently a bit off the subject that is being discussed on this
thread.)

It is not my intent to say you have to listen to FAA. All I am doing is
providing information as to why the terms primary and secomndary are used
they way they are by FAA. It is not a bad idea to know which instrument is
by FAA's thinking the primary instrument. The fact that in common use that
thinking breaks down is not necessarily a bad thing either. Using secondary
instrument, or even a "reference only" instrument, can make the operation
easier.

I don't understand the strong objection(s) to the primary/supporting method.

But then again, I was on the unpopular side of the CANPA in GA planes debate
here as well...


"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

"Richard Hertz" wrote in message
...
I have never seen a POH that discusses instrument flight. (Note - my
experience is limited to GA, so maybe someone can tell me if the 777 POH
and
all other material discuss how to fly IFR. I doubt that they do, but I
could be mistaken. I don't doubt that there is a volume of information
that
uses the words primary, secondary, MTBF, etc - but that is not the same
as
what is being discussed here). While you, Mr. Tarver Engineering, may
be
the world's foremost expert on cool electronic gear for the big boys'
jets
and have the FAA knocking at your door to find all the answers to
everything, I don't think what you are discussing is the same thing as
the
original poster's (and most other replies) content. (Apparently you
hold
your ideas in very high regard. Technically you sound very competent,
but
you are consistently a bit off the subject that is being discussed on
this
thread.)

It is not my intent to say you have to listen to FAA. All I am doing is
providing information as to why the terms primary and secomndary are used
they way they are by FAA. It is not a bad idea to know which instrument
is
by FAA's thinking the primary instrument. The fact that in common use
that
thinking breaks down is not necessarily a bad thing either. Using
secondary
instrument, or even a "reference only" instrument, can make the operation
easier.

"Richard Hertz" wrote in message
...
I don't understand the strong objection(s) to the primary/supporting
method.

That is not my issue, but perhaps some of the instructors here can explain
why they like to fly different from that method.

I, too, found the concept of primary and secondary and the other one whose
name momentarily eludes me tedious. I finally chose to just take the hit on
the test and drive on. Make your best guess on those answers and don't look
back. You won't get a 100 on the test but you will pass if you're savvy on
the other stuff.

fwiw
************************************************** **************************
***
"Jeremy" wrote in message
om...
I'm studying for my written and having an awful time with the
questions dealing with primary/secondary instruments for
pitch/bank/power during various phases of flight. The distinctions
appear to be senseless hair splitting, and I'm getting them mostly
wrong in the practice tests. Some of this is due to my study
materials explaining which is the right answer, but not really *why*.
Is there any way to logically learn this in a way I have a prayer of
remembering, or do I just have to memorize the matrix?

Thanks,
Jeremy