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All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records



 
 
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  #51  
Old March 17th 17, 05:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 9:11:19 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Performance is increased by convenience. Let's flip this round why are motor-packers against separate records?


I've already said I'm all for it - as long as all other conveniences similarly have their own category.

Do you own a trailer for your glider? That is a great (and expensive) convenience when flying cross country with the possibility of a landout. It makes your mindset entirely different and changes the way you fly. We need a separate record category for those with trailers.

Do carry hull insurance? That is expensive, but brings piece of mind in case of a landout, and changes your mindset, allowing you to take more risk and go further. Separate record category for insurance.

Do you have a radio? Not required by law or rules, expensive, but a great convenience in communicating with ground crew for a potential retrieve. You would definitely fly differently without it, different mindset. Separate category.

Do you have a GPS system? A great convenience, knowing exactly where I am, where the landing sites are, if I can make them or not. Definitely changes mindset and risk. Some people cannot afford them, not fair. Separate category.

Do you have a relief tube? While not expensive, it is a great convenience, changing both mindset and pilot performance. Another category.

I could go on, but you get the idea: when you begin to penalize convenience, you step off a cliff, and the bottom is a long way down.
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  #52  
Old March 17th 17, 05:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

The performance gain from extra wingspan is convenient. Is it justifiable to keep records by wingspan? Let's go full on and have one open open class for records. $ame as a motor. No money excuses. Buy the widest, newest glider if you want a record.
On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 1:23:47 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 9:11:19 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Performance is increased by convenience. Let's flip this round why are motor-packers against separate records?


I've already said I'm all for it - as long as all other conveniences similarly have their own category.

Do you own a trailer for your glider? That is a great (and expensive) convenience when flying cross country with the possibility of a landout. It makes your mindset entirely different and changes the way you fly. We need a separate record category for those with trailers.

Do carry hull insurance? That is expensive, but brings piece of mind in case of a landout, and changes your mindset, allowing you to take more risk and go further. Separate record category for insurance.

Do you have a radio? Not required by law or rules, expensive, but a great convenience in communicating with ground crew for a potential retrieve. You would definitely fly differently without it, different mindset. Separate category.

Do you have a GPS system? A great convenience, knowing exactly where I am, where the landing sites are, if I can make them or not. Definitely changes mindset and risk. Some people cannot afford them, not fair. Separate category.

Do you have a relief tube? While not expensive, it is a great convenience, changing both mindset and pilot performance. Another category.

I could go on, but you get the idea: when you begin to penalize convenience, you step off a cliff, and the bottom is a long way down.


  #53  
Old March 17th 17, 06:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Carlyle
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

Easy solution - use handicaps. (ducking and running)

-John, Q3
  #54  
Old March 17th 17, 06:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 8:50:49 PM UTC+3, wrote:
The performance gain from extra wingspan is convenient. Is it justifiable to keep records by wingspan? Let's go full on and have one open open class for records. $ame as a motor. No money excuses. Buy the widest, newest glider if you want a record.


I'll just note that there appear to be world records with a higher "performance" by 15m gliders than by Open Class gliders. Span isn't always an advantage.
  #55  
Old March 17th 17, 06:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Posts: 902
Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 10:50:49 AM UTC-7, wrote:
The performance gain from extra wingspan is convenient. Is it justifiable to keep records by wingspan? Let's go full on and have one open open class for records. $ame as a motor. No money excuses. Buy the widest, newest glider if you want a record.
On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 1:23:47 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 9:11:19 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Performance is increased by convenience. Let's flip this round why are motor-packers against separate records?


I've already said I'm all for it - as long as all other conveniences similarly have their own category.

Do you own a trailer for your glider? That is a great (and expensive) convenience when flying cross country with the possibility of a landout. It makes your mindset entirely different and changes the way you fly. We need a separate record category for those with trailers.

Do carry hull insurance? That is expensive, but brings piece of mind in case of a landout, and changes your mindset, allowing you to take more risk and go further. Separate record category for insurance.

Do you have a radio? Not required by law or rules, expensive, but a great convenience in communicating with ground crew for a potential retrieve. You would definitely fly differently without it, different mindset. Separate category.

Do you have a GPS system? A great convenience, knowing exactly where I am, where the landing sites are, if I can make them or not. Definitely changes mindset and risk. Some people cannot afford them, not fair. Separate category.

Do you have a relief tube? While not expensive, it is a great convenience, changing both mindset and pilot performance. Another category.

I could go on, but you get the idea: when you begin to penalize convenience, you step off a cliff, and the bottom is a long way down.


The performance increase from extra wingspan is objective performance during the flight. Not mindset, not attitude. Yes it is also convenient. The extra performance is used throughout the flight, not just afterward for the retrieve.

I assume you do not want a penalty for your trailer because you already own one, but want to penalize an auxiliary engine because you don't own one. Neither are used to increase objective performance during the flight, both are used after the flight is over for the convenience of the retrieve. Plenty of people have (and continue) to fly cross country without a trailer. They must change their mindset and stay within gliding distance to an airport allowing an air retrieve. Yes, that affects the distance and speed and record achieved. The availability of the trailer makes it possible to consider continuing to off airport landing sites, extending distance and speed. Exactly like an auxiliary engine - the two are quite analogous. I can see no theory by which you can rationally penalize one and not the other. If you have such a theory, please advance it for our consideration.
  #56  
Old March 17th 17, 06:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 11:12:25 AM UTC-7, John Carlyle wrote:
Easy solution - use handicaps. (ducking and running)

-John, Q3


John, since the argument against auxiliary engines is at its base one against cost (or perhaps aesthetics), what you propose is not unreasonable, except that no handicapping system exists that everyone agrees is fair in all conditions.

I propose that records should be categorized by glider value. This would be enforced the way the drag racers do, by a "claiming" rule. You claim your glider is worth $20,000, and fly a record in the $20,000 category. You are obliged to sell that glider for $20,000 to anyone who wants it. This is not only an effective measure against cheating (by flying an EB29 in the $20K class), but also tends to drive the costs even lower as there is incentive to set records in the $20K class with a glider only worth $15K - so no one will claim it.

Now be both have to run for cover....
  #57  
Old March 17th 17, 08:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 11:13:47 AM UTC-7, Bruce Hoult wrote:

I'll just note that there appear to be world records with a higher "performance" by 15m gliders than by Open Class gliders. Span isn't always an advantage.


Sacrilege, you should be drawn and quartered, never to have such blasphemy shared in public again!!
Former N4 driver,
Jon
  #58  
Old March 17th 17, 10:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sierra Whiskey
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

"Yes there are people who don't do this - the NTSA accident database is rife with them."

This is the issue with Motor Gliders right here. The fact that some people (not all) will assume the risk to catch that one last thermal to get to the finish point. The mentality that someone "could" fly over upland able terrain and risk having to start the motor, but making that thermal that a pure glider cannot reach. The psychology of having an alternate option 3 feet behind your head is a factor in the minds of some. Being able to assume that the motor is there and will start is a whole different game. The database shows the accident that happened, but how about the ones that were successful and didn't result in an accident.

The argument of extra weight makes me chuckle. More weight is good on strong days typically. When was the last time a record was broken on a weak day? I am sorry but the assumption that more weight is a bad thing when making a record attempt is poorly represented.


Motor Gliders are not Pure Gliders and they have no place on the same record sheet. This is a horrible move for the Sport of soaring and will further increase the required investment in order to be competitive and break records.

  #59  
Old March 18th 17, 01:19 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 3:03:39 PM UTC-7, Sierra Whiskey wrote:
"Yes there are people who don't do this - the NTSA accident database is rife with them."

This is the issue with Motor Gliders right here. The fact that some people (not all) will assume the risk to catch that one last thermal to get to the finish point. The mentality that someone "could" fly over upland able terrain and risk having to start the motor, but making that thermal that a pure glider cannot reach. The psychology of having an alternate option 3 feet behind your head is a factor in the minds of some. Being able to assume that the motor is there and will start is a whole different game. The database shows the accident that happened, but how about the ones that were successful and didn't result in an accident.

The argument of extra weight makes me chuckle. More weight is good on strong days typically. When was the last time a record was broken on a weak day? I am sorry but the assumption that more weight is a bad thing when making a record attempt is poorly represented.


Motor Gliders are not Pure Gliders and they have no place on the same record sheet. This is a horrible move for the Sport of soaring and will further increase the required investment in order to be competitive and break records.


snip The fact that some people (not all) will assume the risk to catch that one last thermal to get to the finish point. /snip

While true, it is objectively provable (and therefore also disprovable) that this is relevant in record attempts. Since every recent record attempt has associated with it a publicly accessible secure log, these logs can be checked to see how many currently held records were the result of a motorglider that flew dangerously low over unlandable terrain in order to complete the record. Also compare that to those records held by pure gliders doing the same thing. If there is a significant difference in percentage, then you have a good argument.

Those making the extraordinary claim that motorgliders are doing this often and unfairly claiming records need to provide some evidence that the problem actually exists. Otherwise we may cast it into the same rubbish heap as claims of wiretaps of Trump Tower. I doubt you will find many instances of this actually occurring, if you do I will be the first to change my position. Prove it.

It is quite easy to peruse the (motorglider) record flights of Mitch Polinsky or Jim Payne for example, who own all (but 1) of the national distance records where one is most likely find this sort of behavior. They are all posted on OLC for anyone to view. There are no low saves or anything even approaching a low save. Nor are there in any other motorglider national distance record. The motor played no part in the performance of these records. Yet they are harmed in their ability to claim international records due the the baroque US regulations, different from the rest of the world.

As an aside, you have misrepresented the weight argument. Motorgliders cannot dump all the ballast (motor) at the end of a dying day to their disadvantage - exactly the situation in which they are claimed to have an advantage by executing a low save. But as you say, most records are broken on strong days - when neither minimum wing loading, nor low saves are an issue.

The cost argument is specious - a paid retrieve crew is cheaper than an engine.
  #60  
Old March 18th 17, 02:32 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sierra Whiskey
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

To my point, if a retrieve Crew is far cheaper than being a glider equipped with a landing prevention option, then why do pI lots make the investment. Psychologically they are more comfortable flying with that extra option!

Proving that bad decisions are made by certain motor gliders is equally difficult to qualify as proving that they are not taking more risks. The fact of the matter is, the availability of the motor Psychologically changes the way a pilot interprets the risks associated with pushing further.

This argument is just sad in my opinion. If you want to go fly a powered aircraft, go for it, but don't claim that having an engine is equal in all ways to flying a pure glider. Two different classes all together.
 




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