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All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records



 
 
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  #71  
Old March 18th 17, 05:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sierra Whiskey
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

So wait, are you saying that motor glider owners don't have trailers? I am not really sure what the Trailer Versus Motor argument is here.

And if you are spending $1200 per year to maintain your motor (isolate motor cost, not airframe maintenance), something is wrong with your motor. For your own safety please stay within safe glide of a suitable landing field.

I already said you cannot prove that the bad decisions have not been made by motor glider pilots. I am not saying they all make the decision, however the option is there for someone to take the risk. It is about options, not about "have you" or "have I".

The point of consolidation still alludes me. By the logic presented here, eliminate the distinction between general, female, and junior records because there is no apparent difference in performance capability between the groups, and very few female and junior record attempts are being made. I hope we can agree to keep these categories as they contain records that have been set, and they allow for a broader range of goals to be set, calculated, and measured by more pilots.
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  #72  
Old March 18th 17, 07:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records


(ten degrees F this morning. grumble)

I could link a couple of flight logs, created by friends of mine, to stir the pot some more. I'm not going to do this, but I will describe them.

One shows a motor start at a quasi reasonable height AGL... except that there isn't a landable field within even a 60:1 glide slope. This pilot has been flying up and down the this particular valley for over three decades, this wasn't an "oops", it was a decision to fly a dying ridge over a completely unlandable valley in the hopes that it might work and he'd be the hero (else he'd just flip the switch and wait for the noise, which is all the modern ship requires). That was at a regional contest, on a crappy day, not even really worth fighting over (the pure sailplane pilots didn't fight, they made the sensible decision, gave up the task and landed at the airport). The second flight log shows an engine start at 300 agl with no place to crash. Pilot is over an industrial park and the parking lots are full of obstacles. He over flew more or less landable fields at (iirc) 1200 - 1500, just kept going. It was a run of the mill OLC flight, not even an especially good day. Not an oops, another decision. Both of these guys are *vastly* experienced, top notch pilots. Well, except as noted.

However, the advantage to motorgliders in record flying has nothing to do with being able to do stupid stuff like this. The advantage comes from conservation of energy (on the part of the pilot and crew, if any) and potentially enormous savings in time getting reloaded and ready for the next attempt (maybe the following day is a good one too -- it happens).

Furthermore, the scenario I have in mind has nothing to do with finishing off a flight at day's end. We can presume that would-be record setters will have a good enough sense of what they can pull off and enough sense of self preservation to avoid pressing a hopeless mission on a day that just isn't good enough. So the scenario of a pure sailplane pilot running the day to the ragged end and then landing 200 miles from home an hour before sunset isn't a common one at all.

What actually happens is you get blocked by thunderstorms. Or you get wave suppression on a ridge. Or you get squashed on one of the miles long transitions you have to make from ridge to ridge before thermals have started, or you get clobbered on a side jaunt off the ridge system for a triangle task because while the wind is tearing bark off the trees at the top of the mountain, it just isn't a very darned good thermal day in Stuart's Draft, VA (I'm recalling a specific story that some of you will recognize). A chase crew is infeasible for obvious reasons. A pre positioned remote crew isn't feasible, either, since the flight plan often isn't nailed down until the previous evening or even dawn on the day of the flight.

So a sailplane pilot can (and has) ended up in a field hundreds of miles from home, crew and trailer. A motor scooter in same situation can take a short motor run back to the ridge and soar home. That's a matter of convenience in the same sort of way that Gettysburg was a vigorous exchange of views.

No, Mr. Fitch, I don't have any XC time in motor gliders. I don't have anything against them, either, they make lovely toys and if I were as good at making money as many of my friends, I'd probably own one (but I'd keep my ASW-20 too :-)). Your arguments as regards 20 year old technology are just that. There's better out there *now*, never mind the potential for future developments, and the perceived reliability is such that guys evidently think it's good enough to bet life and health on.

I've tried to answer where I think the real advantages are w.r.t. record flying and why the IGC did a disservice to pure glider flyers, record holders and would-be record setters. Our B&R guys were in an awkward spot and the only fault I lay there is that I think they should have sought input from current record holders and active record seekers (mostly the same guys) before changing the rules as they have done.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8
  #73  
Old March 18th 17, 08:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 2:13:47 PM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 8:50:49 PM UTC+3, wrote:
The performance gain from extra wingspan is convenient. Is it justifiable to keep records by wingspan? Let's go full on and have one open open class for records. $ame as a motor. No money excuses. Buy the widest, newest glider if you want a record.


I'll just note that there appear to be world records with a higher "performance" by 15m gliders than by Open Class gliders. Span isn't always an advantage.


Short ones are faster. Right on. All the more reason to stop using span as a record category. Advantage of a single open open class, beyond saving server space, is we'd know what the fastest glider really is.
  #74  
Old March 18th 17, 08:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 10:41:26 AM UTC-7, Sierra Whiskey wrote:
So wait, are you saying that motor glider owners don't have trailers? I am not really sure what the Trailer Versus Motor argument is here.

And if you are spending $1200 per year to maintain your motor (isolate motor cost, not airframe maintenance), something is wrong with your motor. For your own safety please stay within safe glide of a suitable landing field..

I already said you cannot prove that the bad decisions have not been made by motor glider pilots. I am not saying they all make the decision, however the option is there for someone to take the risk. It is about options, not about "have you" or "have I".

The point of consolidation still alludes me. By the logic presented here, eliminate the distinction between general, female, and junior records because there is no apparent difference in performance capability between the groups, and very few female and junior record attempts are being made. I hope we can agree to keep these categories as they contain records that have been set, and they allow for a broader range of goals to be set, calculated, and measured by more pilots.


SW, having the ability to cheat is not the same as cheating. For example, you do not accuse all men of rape merely because they have the equipment to perform the act. The option to take the risk of continuing on too low exists for 'pure' gliders as well. But the fact is, low saves are not a part of any recent record, so the "option" did not come into play.

I will argue against female records on the same basis. Are you suggesting that females are inferior in some way, and cannot routinely achieve the same soaring skills as males? Juniors is a different thing: it encourages a novice group, whose eligibility automatically ends. If you want to fracture records into age groups, that might make more sense - but there is little enough participation even to fill the categories we already have.
  #75  
Old March 18th 17, 09:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 12:16:38 PM UTC-7, Tango Eight wrote:
(ten degrees F this morning. grumble)

I could link a couple of flight logs, created by friends of mine, to stir the pot some more. I'm not going to do this, but I will describe them.

One shows a motor start at a quasi reasonable height AGL... except that there isn't a landable field within even a 60:1 glide slope. This pilot has been flying up and down the this particular valley for over three decades, this wasn't an "oops", it was a decision to fly a dying ridge over a completely unlandable valley in the hopes that it might work and he'd be the hero (else he'd just flip the switch and wait for the noise, which is all the modern ship requires). That was at a regional contest, on a crappy day, not even really worth fighting over (the pure sailplane pilots didn't fight, they made the sensible decision, gave up the task and landed at the airport). The second flight log shows an engine start at 300 agl with no place to crash. Pilot is over an industrial park and the parking lots are full of obstacles. He over flew more or less landable fields at (iirc) 1200 - 1500, just kept going. It was a run of the mill OLC flight, not even an especially good day. Not an oops, another decision. Both of these guys are *vastly* experienced, top notch pilots. Well, except as noted.

However, the advantage to motorgliders in record flying has nothing to do with being able to do stupid stuff like this. The advantage comes from conservation of energy (on the part of the pilot and crew, if any) and potentially enormous savings in time getting reloaded and ready for the next attempt (maybe the following day is a good one too -- it happens).

Furthermore, the scenario I have in mind has nothing to do with finishing off a flight at day's end. We can presume that would-be record setters will have a good enough sense of what they can pull off and enough sense of self preservation to avoid pressing a hopeless mission on a day that just isn't good enough. So the scenario of a pure sailplane pilot running the day to the ragged end and then landing 200 miles from home an hour before sunset isn't a common one at all.

What actually happens is you get blocked by thunderstorms. Or you get wave suppression on a ridge. Or you get squashed on one of the miles long transitions you have to make from ridge to ridge before thermals have started, or you get clobbered on a side jaunt off the ridge system for a triangle task because while the wind is tearing bark off the trees at the top of the mountain, it just isn't a very darned good thermal day in Stuart's Draft, VA (I'm recalling a specific story that some of you will recognize). A chase crew is infeasible for obvious reasons. A pre positioned remote crew isn't feasible, either, since the flight plan often isn't nailed down until the previous evening or even dawn on the day of the flight.

So a sailplane pilot can (and has) ended up in a field hundreds of miles from home, crew and trailer. A motor scooter in same situation can take a short motor run back to the ridge and soar home. That's a matter of convenience in the same sort of way that Gettysburg was a vigorous exchange of views.

No, Mr. Fitch, I don't have any XC time in motor gliders. I don't have anything against them, either, they make lovely toys and if I were as good at making money as many of my friends, I'd probably own one (but I'd keep my ASW-20 too :-)). Your arguments as regards 20 year old technology are just that. There's better out there *now*, never mind the potential for future developments, and the perceived reliability is such that guys evidently think it's good enough to bet life and health on.

I've tried to answer where I think the real advantages are w.r.t. record flying and why the IGC did a disservice to pure glider flyers, record holders and would-be record setters. Our B&R guys were in an awkward spot and the only fault I lay there is that I think they should have sought input from current record holders and active record seekers (mostly the same guys) before changing the rules as they have done.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8


Evan, thank you for making a reasoned argument (even if it is flawed ).

I have no experience flying in east coast conditions, but I imagine the temptation for a low engine start there is greater. Heck there are whole contests flown there were nobody ever got up to what I would consider a safe engine start altitude. In the west, I start the engine at 2000 AGL, over an airport. Most off-airport landings in the western desert involve damage. I have done this 7 times in 17 years of motorglider ownership and around 30,000 cross country miles. Had I not owned an engine (or the engine not start) I would land and call a tow plane. There was no difference in the flight otherwise.

But almost all national records set in the last 10 years are flown in the west, where conditions are much more favorable, and in the west, 5000 AGL is low.

Your point about the effort advantage of a motorglider retrieve vs. a trailer retrieve is valid, and is the primary reason why record attempts in the west are almost all flown in motorgliders (it has nothing at all to do with decision making during the flight). A long retrieve can take two days out here. Nevertheless, this has been a constantly changing problem: the Wright brothers had their crew physically return the glider to the start by carrying it on their backs. Then we progressed to air retrieves and trailer retrieves. Motorglider retrieves are easier still. Yet you wish to freeze the sport at a particular moment in time, that happens to coincide with the equipment you own. If there is to be a 'A' for effort, even in an objectively inferior performance, where do we draw the line? You want to draw it at a motor, suppose I want to draw it at GPS usage? You cannot be right while I am wrong. Effort based scoring is an invitation to chaos.

It makes much more sense to me to separate a "legacy" class for national records. This could contain 3rd generation glass gliders with no motors, if you like. There are a lot of them around, from PIK20 up to ASW24 say, and in the 15 and standard classes. This is a far more logical separation than grouping a PIK20-E with a JS1-J, and an ASW20 with a JS3 or V3 or ASG29. And it does not penalize US pilots flying for international records.

20 years from now the distinction will be lost, as all gliders will have motors. It has already happened in Europe. Which is probably why the IGC has done what it did.
  #76  
Old March 18th 17, 10:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sierra Whiskey
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

But the option DOES come in to play. If the motor glider is successful in hooking that thermal in non-landable terrain, the record is claimed. In general records are not claimed if the glider got low, and no records are claimed where the engine was required to start on course. The concept of there being recordable data of the unsuccessful attempts is just not valid.

I am NOT saying that one group is inferior to another, which is why I said the logic stands that if we are going to collapse the record list we should get rid of these classes too because there is no measurable difference between a male, female, or junior pilot in terms of capability, performance, or handicap. But we choose to keep these records as they are instead of taking away opportunities to set a diverse variety of records.

Other sports do have age group records such as weightlifting. I would not expect an 80+ year old weightlifter to compete for records against the 22 year old Olympic Record holder. But maybe there is no measurable difference for that to matter either since the older lifter has had longer to train or some other obscure logic that one comes up with.

We can try to rationalize some outlandish equivalency between motor gliders and real gliders, or we can just agree that the system should be (have been) left alone with separate classes for the two. Motor gliders deserve to hold records too, but in their own class. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". The system wasn't broken until they went and added this ridiculous modification.

  #77  
Old March 18th 17, 10:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sierra Whiskey
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

"Most off-airport landings in the western desert involve damage."

Sorry but this is just false... unless it was done without a "suitable landing option within glide". This is what I am worried that motor glider pilots may start forgetting.



  #78  
Old March 19th 17, 05:53 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 3:23:24 PM UTC-7, Sierra Whiskey wrote:
But the option DOES come in to play. If the motor glider is successful in hooking that thermal in non-landable terrain, the record is claimed. In general records are not claimed if the glider got low, and no records are claimed where the engine was required to start on course. The concept of there being recordable data of the unsuccessful attempts is just not valid.

I am NOT saying that one group is inferior to another, which is why I said the logic stands that if we are going to collapse the record list we should get rid of these classes too because there is no measurable difference between a male, female, or junior pilot in terms of capability, performance, or handicap. But we choose to keep these records as they are instead of taking away opportunities to set a diverse variety of records.

Other sports do have age group records such as weightlifting. I would not expect an 80+ year old weightlifter to compete for records against the 22 year old Olympic Record holder. But maybe there is no measurable difference for that to matter either since the older lifter has had longer to train or some other obscure logic that one comes up with.

We can try to rationalize some outlandish equivalency between motor gliders and real gliders, or we can just agree that the system should be (have been) left alone with separate classes for the two. Motor gliders deserve to hold records too, but in their own class. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". The system wasn't broken until they went and added this ridiculous modification.


snip If the motor glider is successful in hooking that thermal in non-landable terrain, the record is claimed./snip Show me a single instance in a national record. Furthermore, look at the traces of all the non claimed record attempts flown the same year. They are all posted for you to see. Show me the low saves over unlandable terrain. You claim this is rampant, yet cannot provide a single example, even though all of these flight logs are available to anyone in seconds. Your claims are simply false, without merit, unsupported by evidence of any kind. Are they based on "alternative facts"? You allege thoughts, motives, and actions to record holding motorglider pilots without either knowledge or experience. That is deplorable. I do not doubt that there are motorglider pilots who engage in engine start low saves over unlandable terrain - its a big world with a lot of different people in it. These pilots are not record setting pilots though.

I encourage everyone to look for themselves. Sign into OLC, pick a record holding pilot like Mitch Polinsky or Jim Payne, pick a year that the record was claimed. In the flight book, scroll down the flights that month. Hover the cursor over each flight and you will see the altitude trace including ground clearance. Engine runs are shown in yellow and subsequent trace in grey. This will take you 5 minutes time. Record attempts are not made out here on weak days. The working band on the strong days is generally 13,000 - 18,000 feet, over terrain that is roughly 5000 ft. At 50:1 you have 75 miles glide once you get "low". For all of 2016 (in which many records were set) Mitch Polinsky's log files shows 1 inflight engine start (directly over Ely airport on 7/15) for the entire year. In 2014 (another record year) I count 5 engine starts in 34 flights, 4 in the immediate vicinity of airports, one within glide of an airstrip. All of the potential landing sites air and car retrievable. In 2015, 3 times, all in the immediate vicinity of airports/airstrips.

In the Great Basin, where almost all of the currently held records where flown, there are very, very few "suitable landing sites" that are not airports or airstrips. What looks like flat desert is rock strewn, sagebrush covered, glider breaking rough and tumble desert range. What looks like a dry lake is an alkali swamp. This isn't Kansas, there aren't any plowed corn fields.

I get it. You don't like motorgliders, they offend your sense of what a "pure" or "real" glider is (your terms). That is a personal belief that you hold, not shared by a lot of the world. But pretending that they have an advantage during the performance of a record attempt is provably without merit. During any of those record attempts listed above, you could have flown right alongside in a V2c or 29, with exactly the same options and safety (and a little more performance, too).
  #79  
Old March 19th 17, 07:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sierra Whiskey
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

Not the first time my opinions have been thought of as "Deplorable" but I am okay with that.

We are getting closer to the root of the problem. There is a distinct difference between a "Low Save" and pushing into unlandable territory. I am not saying record setting flights involve low saves. In fact I have said that a number of times. The "danger" aspect is flying in an area where a safe glide cannot be made to a suitable landing option. Flying in Arizona, there are many places where I can be flying at 8,000 feet AGL, and not be able to reach a place to land. (Break your glider country) This concept cannot be derived from any flight logs unless we had an analytic tool to determine where every suitable landing option is. For all I know someone could be at 14,000 feet over the desert and have no where to safely land within glide. Well, unless you had a motor with Plenty of altitude to get it started.

Your "Alternative Fact" that "Most off-airport landings in the western desert involve damage" is disproved by the MANY landouts I have had while soaring in the Arizona and New Mexico desert. And trust me, I land out a Lot! I have not broken a glider (Knock on Wood), but I have met many land owners! It is due to planning and always having options. An option I don't have in a pure glider is motoring out.

I invite you to tape your engine shut and see if the way you fly changes at all. Even a hint of a thought that "the motor is back there" while flying changes the game and the way you fly. Sailing a boat with a motor changes where you sail your boat. (Wouldn't want to get stuck out in the open water without favorable winds?)

I get it that you are offended that I view your motor glider as a non-pure glider, but that is a personal belief that you hold, not shared by a lot of the world. (Paraphrased) But pretending that they do not have a distinct advantage during the performance of a record attempt equally lacks merit. Particularly I don't see comments from many Motor-Glider record holders showing up here to defend their position.

All I am saying is that Motor Gliders are not Pure Gliders, and thus treating them the same on the record sheet when they have been treated separately for so many years makes no sense. Why the consolidation? Was there a complaint by motor glider pilots that they couldn't claim pure glider records, or was this a knee jerk (good idea fairy) action that had no development or reason other than to simplify the record sheets? Where is the supporting data used to implement the change?
  #80  
Old March 19th 17, 09:24 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Sunday, March 19, 2017 at 10:17:43 PM UTC+3, Sierra Whiskey wrote:
Not the first time my opinions have been thought of as "Deplorable" but I am okay with that.

We are getting closer to the root of the problem. There is a distinct difference between a "Low Save" and pushing into unlandable territory. I am not saying record setting flights involve low saves. In fact I have said that a number of times. The "danger" aspect is flying in an area where a safe glide cannot be made to a suitable landing option. Flying in Arizona, there are many places where I can be flying at 8,000 feet AGL, and not be able to reach a place to land. (Break your glider country) This concept cannot be derived from any flight logs unless we had an analytic tool to determine where every suitable landing option is. For all I know someone could be at 14,000 feet over the desert and have no where to safely land within glide. Well, unless you had a motor with Plenty of altitude to get it started.

Your "Alternative Fact" that "Most off-airport landings in the western desert involve damage" is disproved by the MANY landouts I have had while soaring in the Arizona and New Mexico desert. And trust me, I land out a Lot! I have not broken a glider (Knock on Wood), but I have met many land owners! It is due to planning and always having options. An option I don't have in a pure glider is motoring out.

I invite you to tape your engine shut and see if the way you fly changes at all. Even a hint of a thought that "the motor is back there" while flying changes the game and the way you fly. Sailing a boat with a motor changes where you sail your boat. (Wouldn't want to get stuck out in the open water without favorable winds?)

I get it that you are offended that I view your motor glider as a non-pure glider, but that is a personal belief that you hold, not shared by a lot of the world. (Paraphrased) But pretending that they do not have a distinct advantage during the performance of a record attempt equally lacks merit. Particularly I don't see comments from many Motor-Glider record holders showing up here to defend their position.

All I am saying is that Motor Gliders are not Pure Gliders, and thus treating them the same on the record sheet when they have been treated separately for so many years makes no sense. Why the consolidation? Was there a complaint by motor glider pilots that they couldn't claim pure glider records, or was this a knee jerk (good idea fairy) action that had no development or reason other than to simplify the record sheets? Where is the supporting data used to implement the change?


Why the consolidation? That's easy.

The record books have two types of records:

1) the "real" ones. The best performances.

2) consolation ones, to encourage participation by those who might not otherwise do so because they have little chance of getting a real record because of their disadvantaged circumstances, to wit: natural disadvantages such as a) young age; b) lack of a penis; or carrying around extra useless weight in the form of c) a second pilot; or d) a motor.

NB: I'm not saying this is how *I* think!! This is how the people who set up the categories in the 1920s or 1950s or whenever it was thought.

If and when the disadvantages resulting in formation of the consolation categories are rendered no longer a disadvantage they can participate in the real records.
 




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