An ADS-B In Question

On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 2:56:39 PM UTC-8, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 4:05:49 PM UTC-5, Vaughn Simon wrote:
On 1/18/2016 11:59 AM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
1-The FCC rule section was linked.

Wrongly, or at least incompletely applied to today's personal
communications devices.

2-Follow-up info was linked (regarding cell frequencies used as well as prohibited).

Which you obviously didn't bother to read (or at least, understand).
Part H, which is where the reg you referenced comes from, only applies
to certain 800 MHZ frequency bands. Your personal communications device
might be operating on any of at least six other frequency bands.

3-I have not seen anyone show where my reading of the FCC rules is incorrect,
thus cellphone use INFLIGHT is against the FCC rules.

I did show it, you rejected it.

4-I don't see anything in the FCC rules that allows use of any tracker while inflight.

"Allows?" It's prohibitions that matter. If your REAL concern is
trackers, then make your case on that basis. Stop playing FCC lawyer on
the Internet.

Not an "FCC lawyer" either on the Internet or other places.
Not having an "agenda" for/against technology.

My comment on "cell based trackers" is whether or not these go against what airborne communications the FCC (in the US) allow, I'm not an expert, you "may" be better qualified than I am.

You saying I "rejected parts of your posts" is not valid in my mind, I posted items (as did another) and then you did 2 posts back to back. Sorta hard for anyone to reject something "after the fact".
This is my 1st response to you and your view/data.
Not sure where you came up with, "Which you obviously didn't bother to read (or at least, understand), Part H, which is where the reg you referenced comes from, only applies to certain 800 MHZ frequency bands."

My read is, quite a few freq's are banned from inflight use in the US.

Hey, while I'm a "sorta tech guy", radio communications is not my strong point, and we're trying to understand a US government agency rules. Sorta like, "FAA rules are clear & succinct, except for the exceptions".
Gives new meaning to, "Rules developed by lawyers so it takes a lawyer to understand.....sometimes....".

Not picking a fight (it's the Internet, grand scheme of things, I better things to do).
Speaking for myself, I have no control over the FAA, FCC, SSA RC, etc. Since I'm not a "current US contest pilot", I can't vote on current ideas or issues. That's my issue, not this forum.
I sorta get bent when peeps get slammed when they may have issues outside of the "small box" that create other issues.
Until I see further, I still think there are issues with ANY cellphone based communications (call, text, tracker) in the US while airborne.

[sorry, you have not convinced me, just added to the clutter to a sorta different thread...... I was only relying to a slam against the SSA RC on being Luddites]

We are seeking clarification on FCC regs as applies to use of mobile data in airplanes - or specifically gliders. There is also an investigation of the practicality of accessing tracking web pages over 3G, 4G, LTE networks in the US. Initial indications are that, when it comes to tracking data, it is better to give than to receive.

I'd point out that there is a difference between: 1) permitting in flight access to tracker aggregation web pages (both from a competitive and FCC perspective), 2) the practicality of anyone being able to get good enough access to gain situational awareness at a distance given the connectivity issues and various lags in the systems, 3) permitting use of tracker transmitters in general and 4) specifying which tracker transmitters are or are not permitted.

Today only SPOT and InReach are permitted (Sean - my InReach seems to show up on Glideport.aero just fine). The issue on the table would be to remove the prohibition on mobile phone transmitters without endorsing or requiring its use. Whether it is or isn't prohibited by the FCC and whether the FCC would prosecute a pilot for use of low bandwidth data in mostly remote locations is certainly worth evaluating for any individual pilot, but since tracking via phone isn't required by the rules, and other transmitters are available and in use, the RC would neither be endorsing nor precluding mobile data use for sending tracking info. Note that the tracking pages that support mobile phone trackers appear on SSA.org so there is already precedent that the SSA is neutral on the issue.

9B

UPDATE!

I went and flew! Found wave a few miles east of Sandia Peak at 10K',
pulled engine to idle and climbed to 14K', shutdown and feathered the
prop and climbed up to 16,000' MSL. It was getting very cold inside and
the engine oil was also cooling rapidly so I started the engine, left it
a bit above idle, and flew home.

Way better day than operating my keyboard.

On 1/18/2016 10:13 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
Thanks, Sarah, it's now a matter of deciding whether to do a code
search or to go fly... Hmmmmm....

On 1/18/2016 6:57 AM, Sarah wrote:
Dan, it's probably easier than you think (for the right person).

Stratux is entirely open source - it should be possible to gin up whatever data the FLARM-in wants. I sent you a couple links about this in email: The Flarm data protocol and how to get serial output from the pi.

As an IT manager would say ... " just a simple matter of programming ".

Sarah Anderson

On Sunday, January 17, 2016 at 5:09:47 PM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
A protocol converter might work! I'll ask my wife if she's willing
to come out of retirement to play with it.



For me, I'd just let the weather information fall onto the cockpit
floor. I don't see the utility, for my type of flying,
of having weather information displayed in my VFR glider cockpit.
I'll continue to look out the window for that. ;-)




On 1/17/2016 3:33 PM, Andy Blackburn
wrote:



On Sunday, January 17, 2016 at 11:46:30 AM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:


Dan you are wasting your time trying to get these to talk together, as I have already mentioned (in this meandering thread). XCSoar accepts Flarm dataport format data (including FLARM, ADS-B and PCAS data from a PowerFLARM). Stratusx outputs GDL-90 format data. They are not compatible at all.


Might it be possible for someone to write a Raspberry Pi program to convert GDL-90 data to Flarm data port format? Is GDL-90 proprietary? Do you have to pay a license fee to use it or something? Since it's ADS-B generated data and Flarm outputs ADS-B targets from its own receiver I would think it would be relatively straightforward for a competent programmer to do. You might even be able to plug the Flarm serial output directly into the Raspberry Pi and Mux the two data streams together for output to a flight computer.

That still leaves the question of how to handle any ADS-B weather (especially weather radar) information, the display of which presumably no soaring flight computer maker has provided for yet. However, LXNav is rolling out their own cellular data-based weather map service. If that's not a proprietary/closed format some additional work somewhere could allow making ADS-B weather data suitable for display as well - at least on some displays. Cellular data feeds can be problematic for technical and regulatory reasons so using the ADS-B free weather is ultimately probably a superior solution - just in the US. Satellite subscription could be useful elsewhere I suppose.

Just spitballing - I'm no expert on this. Would be cool if it could work though.

9B





--

Dan, 5J

--
Dan, 5J

--
Dan, 5J

On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 5:01:59 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
UPDATE!



I went and flew!* Found wave a few miles east of Sandia Peak at
10K', pulled engine to idle and climbed to 14K', shutdown and
feathered the prop and climbed up to 16,000' MSL.* It was getting
very cold inside and the engine oil was also cooling rapidly so I
started the engine, left it a bit above idle, and flew home.



Way better day than operating my keyboard.




On 1/18/2016 10:13 AM, Dan Marotta
wrote:




Thanks, Sarah, it's now a matter of deciding whether to do a code
search or to go fly...* Hmmmmm....




On 1/18/2016 6:57 AM, Sarah wrote:



Dan, it's probably easier than you think (for the right person).

Stratux is entirely open source - it should be possible to gin up whatever data the FLARM-in wants. I sent you a couple links about this in email: The Flarm data protocol and how to get serial output from the pi.

As an IT manager would say ... " just a simple matter of programming ".

Sarah Anderson

On Sunday, January 17, 2016 at 5:09:47 PM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:


A protocol converter might work!* I'll ask my wife if she's willing
to come out of retirement to play with it.



For me, I'd just let the weather information fall onto the cockpit
floor.* I don't see the utility, for my type of flying,
of having weather information displayed in my VFR glider cockpit.*
I'll continue to look out the window for that.* ;-)




On 1/17/2016 3:33 PM, Andy Blackburn
wrote:



On Sunday, January 17, 2016 at 11:46:30 AM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:


Dan you are wasting your time trying to get these to talk together, as I have already mentioned (in this meandering thread). XCSoar accepts Flarm dataport format data (including FLARM, ADS-B and PCAS data from a PowerFLARM). Stratusx outputs GDL-90 format data. They are not compatible at all.


Might it be possible for someone to write a Raspberry Pi program to convert GDL-90 data to Flarm data port format? Is GDL-90 proprietary? Do you have to pay a license fee to use it or something? Since it's ADS-B generated data and Flarm outputs ADS-B targets from its own receiver I would think it would be relatively straightforward for a competent programmer to do. You might even be able to plug the Flarm serial output directly into the Raspberry Pi and Mux the two data streams together for output to a flight computer.

That still leaves the question of how to handle any ADS-B weather (especially weather radar) information, the display of which presumably no soaring flight computer maker has provided for yet. However, LXNav is rolling out their own cellular data-based weather map service. If that's not a proprietary/closed format some additional work somewhere could allow making ADS-B weather data suitable for display as well - at least on some displays. Cellular data feeds can be problematic for technical and regulatory reasons so using the ADS-B free weather is ultimately probably a superior solution - just in the US. Satellite subscription could be useful elsewhere I suppose.

Just spitballing - I'm no expert on this. Would be cool if it could work though.

9B





--

Dan, 5J






--

Dan, 5J




--

Dan, 5J

Now we're all jealous!

MB

Hi Martin

I have checked the site, but daylight visibility is not mentioned. Are any of the displays known for it?

Thanks

Paul

If you are getting a nice picture from the ADSB software receiver on your
RaspberryPi, you may want to look at the touch-sensitive TFT displays
Adafruit sell for the RPi -

On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 21:33:47 -0800, Paul B wrote:

Hi Martin

I have checked the site, but daylight visibility is not mentioned. Are
any of the displays known for it?

I haven't (yet) tried using them, but my guess would be that they are
similar to any other small screen that you might find on a budget satnav
or phone.

For comparison, I run LK8000 with terrain turned off and with the
background set to white and text set to solid black to maximise contrast
in my Libelle. I've used both Binatone B.350 and a Medion GoPAL S.3747
satnavs. The Binatone was usable but a bit washed out in normal
conditions and almost unreadable with direct sunlight on the display. The
Medion has a trans-reflective display and so is good in normal use but a
bit washed out with direct sunlight on the display.

I'll post a query on comp.raspberry-pi because I've been wondering how
well this sort of rig would run LK8000.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 7:47:31 PM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 2:56:39 PM UTC-8, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 4:05:49 PM UTC-5, Vaughn Simon wrote:
On 1/18/2016 11:59 AM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
1-The FCC rule section was linked.

Wrongly, or at least incompletely applied to today's personal
communications devices.

2-Follow-up info was linked (regarding cell frequencies used as well as prohibited).

Which you obviously didn't bother to read (or at least, understand).
Part H, which is where the reg you referenced comes from, only applies
to certain 800 MHZ frequency bands. Your personal communications device
might be operating on any of at least six other frequency bands.

3-I have not seen anyone show where my reading of the FCC rules is incorrect,
thus cellphone use INFLIGHT is against the FCC rules.

I did show it, you rejected it.

4-I don't see anything in the FCC rules that allows use of any tracker while inflight.

"Allows?" It's prohibitions that matter. If your REAL concern is
trackers, then make your case on that basis. Stop playing FCC lawyer on
the Internet.

Not an "FCC lawyer" either on the Internet or other places.
Not having an "agenda" for/against technology.

My comment on "cell based trackers" is whether or not these go against what airborne communications the FCC (in the US) allow, I'm not an expert, you "may" be better qualified than I am.

You saying I "rejected parts of your posts" is not valid in my mind, I posted items (as did another) and then you did 2 posts back to back. Sorta hard for anyone to reject something "after the fact".
This is my 1st response to you and your view/data.
Not sure where you came up with, "Which you obviously didn't bother to read (or at least, understand), Part H, which is where the reg you referenced comes from, only applies to certain 800 MHZ frequency bands."

My read is, quite a few freq's are banned from inflight use in the US.

Hey, while I'm a "sorta tech guy", radio communications is not my strong point, and we're trying to understand a US government agency rules. Sorta like, "FAA rules are clear & succinct, except for the exceptions".
Gives new meaning to, "Rules developed by lawyers so it takes a lawyer to understand.....sometimes....".

Not picking a fight (it's the Internet, grand scheme of things, I better things to do).
Speaking for myself, I have no control over the FAA, FCC, SSA RC, etc. Since I'm not a "current US contest pilot", I can't vote on current ideas or issues. That's my issue, not this forum.
I sorta get bent when peeps get slammed when they may have issues outside of the "small box" that create other issues.
Until I see further, I still think there are issues with ANY cellphone based communications (call, text, tracker) in the US while airborne.

[sorry, you have not convinced me, just added to the clutter to a sorta different thread...... I was only relying to a slam against the SSA RC on being Luddites]

We are seeking clarification on FCC regs as applies to use of mobile data in airplanes - or specifically gliders. There is also an investigation of the practicality of accessing tracking web pages over 3G, 4G, LTE networks in the US. Initial indications are that, when it comes to tracking data, it is better to give than to receive.

I'd point out that there is a difference between: 1) permitting in flight access to tracker aggregation web pages (both from a competitive and FCC perspective), 2) the practicality of anyone being able to get good enough access to gain situational awareness at a distance given the connectivity issues and various lags in the systems, 3) permitting use of tracker transmitters in general and 4) specifying which tracker transmitters are or are not permitted.

Today only SPOT and InReach are permitted (Sean - my InReach seems to show up on Glideport.aero just fine). The issue on the table would be to remove the prohibition on mobile phone transmitters without endorsing or requiring its use. Whether it is or isn't prohibited by the FCC and whether the FCC would prosecute a pilot for use of low bandwidth data in mostly remote locations is certainly worth evaluating for any individual pilot, but since tracking via phone isn't required by the rules, and other transmitters are available and in use, the RC would neither be endorsing nor precluding mobile data use for sending tracking info. Note that the tracking pages that support mobile phone trackers appear on SSA.org so there is already precedent that the SSA is neutral on the issue.

9B

Excellent reply, thank you.

On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 5:22:57 AM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 21:33:47 -0800, Paul B wrote:

Hi Martin

I have checked the site, but daylight visibility is not mentioned. Are
any of the displays known for it?

I haven't (yet) tried using them, but my guess would be that they are
similar to any other small screen that you might find on a budget satnav
or phone.

For comparison, I run LK8000 with terrain turned off and with the
background set to white and text set to solid black to maximise contrast
in my Libelle. I've used both Binatone B.350 and a Medion GoPAL S.3747
satnavs. The Binatone was usable but a bit washed out in normal
conditions and almost unreadable with direct sunlight on the display. The
Medion has a trans-reflective display and so is good in normal use but a
bit washed out with direct sunlight on the display.

I'll post a query on comp.raspberry-pi because I've been wondering how
well this sort of rig would run LK8000.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Since you seem rather well versed in R-pi, is there much support on a "R-pi" forum for things glider pilots may be interested in? If so, is there one or more sites that have better support and what would they be?

I've thought about using R-pi for other things, so it may be more worthwhile to cover many possible items under one basic processor.
TIA.

Brilliant post. Happy to someone else gets it.

RAS 1/19/16

Well, maybe for you Andy, but the InReach flight data (alt, airspeed, heading) doesn't show up for me or, more importantly, Tiffany. It did once, for a short time. Today, only position info (like Spot) is displayed for us. If it ever did work it is unreliable and inconsistent. This really should not be hard. When I recently inquired about the concern, I was told it was an "integration issue" and they could not figure it out right now (PAGC timeframe). I chose to leave it alone.

That said, it does drive us crazy. We know skylines works wonderfully for example. Th SSA tracker app, on the other hand, discourages our friends and colleagues almost immediately. Initially, when I described the idea (follow my flight live and watch a race!), many of my friends showed interest in following flights live. Most stopped bothering, rather quickly, including a major news reporter who became interested in soaring and gave it a shot.. To put it mildly, it didn't work well. They usually give up "watching" (10 minute updates is hardly, watching...) flights on the SSA page in under 30 minutes. Some switched to my InReach page (30 second updates). This of course misses the entire point of watching "a race" (no other gliders and no task info, of course, is available on the personal InReach (or spot) page).

Bottom line: the SSA tracking app is boring, pointless.l and any further development is a complete waste of time.

Side note: How hard would it be to have a contest commentator and do a live stream of every SSA contest flight by the way. This is not really that hard or far-fetched. Modern technology (the horror, I can already hear the screams....) such as the cellular data based LiveStream24 automatically gives us task relevant data and all sorts of telemetry such as altitude, current place, climb rate, heading, speed, etc. We could record these live streams and build an SSA YouTube contest task library of all of our tasks for pilots (new and experienced) and anyone else who is interested (family, friends, colleagues, students, media, sponsors, etc) to replay later. What a resource that would be. This could of course be done remotely for nearly zero cost. Amazing idea. But I digress.... Back to the actual SSA situation.

Andy,

Well, maybe for you, but the InReach flight data (alt, airspeed, heading) doesn't show up for me or, more importantly, Tiffany (my crew/wife). It did once, a couple years ago, for a short time. Today, only position info (like Spot) is displayed for us. If it ever did work it was unreliable and inconsistent. This really should not be that hard. When I recently inquired about the concern, I was told it was an "integration issue" and they could not figure it out right now (PAGC timeframe). I chose to leave it alone.

That said, it does drive us crazy. We know Skylines and LiveTrack24 work wonderfully for example. The SSA tracker app, on the other hand, actually discourages our friends and colleagues almost immediately. Initially, when I described the idea (follow my flight live and watch a race!), many of my friends showed interest in following flights live. Most stopped bothering, rather quickly, including a major news reporter who became interested in soaring and gave the tracker a shot for a potential news story. To put it mildly, it didn't work well. They usually give up "watching" (10 minute updates is hardly, watching...) flights on the SSA page in under 30 minutes. Some switched to my InReach page (30 second updates). This was better but, of course, misses the entire point of watching "a race." No other competition gliders and no task info is available on the personal InReach (or Spot) page.

Bottom line: the SSA tracking app is boring, pointless, and any further development is a complete waste of time. It was a good idea but it has been overrun now by better, cheaper tech. Sat trackers is now, again, primarily emergency beacons. The truth is that most glider pilots are unwilling to pay the required Spot or InReach satellite "tracking" subscription and half of those who do pay forget to turn the tracking function on (simple checklist item...).

Side note: How hard would it be to have a contest commentator and do a live stream of every SSA contest flight by the way. Cell data based tracking enables this possibility. This is not really that hard or far-fetched. Modern technology (the horror, I can already hear the screams....) such as the cellular data based LiveStream24 automatically gives us task relevant data and all sorts of telemetry such as altitude, current place, climb rate, heading, speed, etc. We could simply record these live streams (with a good commentator) and then upload and build an SSA YouTube contest task library with all of our tasks for pilots (new and experienced) and anyone else who is interested (family, friends, colleagues, students, media, sponsors, etc) to replay anytime. What a resource that would be for the SSA and its membership. This could of course be done remotely for nearly zero cost. Amazing idea. But I digress.... Back to the actual SSA situation...

We have many great volunteers in the SSA. I am not blaming them for this problem, specifically. This is an example of more of a cultural problem. We consistently spend money (and precious volunteer time) on the wrong priorities. "The oligarchy" keeps us firmly in a relative stone age vs. our peer sports. See SSA website in general as a glaring example. The rest of the sailplane world seems to innovate and improve the sport continuously (Europe, Australia, etc).

Watching the Junior Worlds live via LiveTrack24 in Australia last month, for example, was an eye opening contrast in technology adoption philosophy. Not a single person (that I know of) brought up cellular data as being "illegal." Reason, because that is a ridiculous statement. In the US, we would have guys (oligarchs) saying it was illegal and calling the FAA. Pathetic, but sadly true. We all know this is a direct response to their technology insecurity and pointless crusade to attack any technology that moves, at almost any costs.

I wish to argue that we have numerous COTS (commercial off the shelf, ready to go) contest tracking options that are proven, great, affordable solutions (LiveTrack, Skylines, European COTS solutions, more every month) and yet we are still screwing around with some home grown (POS) SSA solution that doesn't really work for the trackers that are most worthwhile to track (InReach). Developing and maintaining custom software in an organization as small as the SSA is quite insane. See results. We should replace the SSA tracker with a livetrack24 solution (or similar).

Spot tracking and their infamous 10 minute "position only updates" (no altitude, no heading, no speed, etc) are completely useless and put people to sleep.

Furthermore, while watching an SSS tracker app task, any given pilot could be "on the ground" not moving (or dead) or could be at 18,000 ft going 150 knots! Who knows? Let's wait 10 minutes and see what happens! Did it move? Is it stuck? Is the transmitter blocked? Let's wait another 10 minutes and see what happens?!

Oh the suspense of SSA tracker app Spot contest tracking!!! Yeah! The SSA tracking app is useless for watching "a race" and even more useless as a safety tool. It can take up to 20 minutes to realize that a glider in in the same "Spot" (get it? Spot? -) or still moving. Far longer to determine if there is a problem, a potential land-out (or worse). This is a massive waste of critical time from a safety perspective. We should not even bother with the SSA satellite tracker tool any longer. It is already irrelevant. Has been for over a year. We must, wait for it, INNOVATE. Or put less politely, GET OUT OF OUR OWN WAY.

Meanwhile we have RAS "FCC lawyers" and anti technology "Oligarchs" typing out their posts in black robes wearing white curly wigs with round wire glasses as the scoff aloud. Cell phones are illegal in flight! Of course they have no idea what that actually means technically. "We walk uphill and into the wind all the time at the SSA, and we like it! See!" Meanwhile paragliding and hang-gliders (and large amounts of the sailplane world) are light years ahead of us...and gaining...

It's really quite out of control...the SSA needs to get out of its own way in many, many cases. Cellular data is a fine example. We need leaders who can help our sport innovate in the USA, not leaders who are hallucinating (that pilots can simply leech from BVR with their Flarms or cell phones) the desperate need to "protect us" from any new (evil) technology that comes along, at all costs like a on infamous 1700's witch hunt...

"Those young whipper snappers don't even look out the damn window anymore! They just watch their cell phones and Flarms like an X box game, finding synthetic thermals and leaching us, the rightful lords of soaring, from miles away!"

"It's unfair! It's not the tradition of soaring! It's blasphemous! Back in my day I had a map and compass, and I liked it! That's all you need for soaring! No fancy screens and gadgets! Pilots who use gadgets are "weak-assed!" Yeah! Yeah! It's weak assed!"

"Burn them! Burn those whipper snapping witches alive! Burn the young technology whipper snapper witches! Yeah! Guilty! GUILTY! Cheaters! They just use the cell tracking data to drive their leeching autopilots!!!"

"Weather data...Fuey! That's cheating! We just flew right thru the thunderstorm, and we liked it!"

Seriously. We need some reasonable people to take the reigns here. It's become a little spooky.