Knowledge????

On Wednesday, 30 December 2020 at 15:18:26 UTC, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 12/29/2020 11:34 PM:
On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 6:30:38 PM UTC-8, Guy Acheson wrote:
The politics of Covid is astounding.

For those of you who question the effectiveness of masks...oh my

I am a dentist. We have been wearing masks 100% of the time in our offices from the beginning.
We require all patients/delivery persons/anyone who enters our office to be wearing a mask that covers BOTH their mouth and nose.
No...we do not allow mouth shields or face shields in place of a mask. They are not the same thing at all.

From January 2020 through September 2020, less than 1% of all people who work in a dental office have tested positive for Covid.
A dental office is probably the most dangerous place you could be with regards to an airborne infectious particle.
Our handpieces blow air in the mouth which ejects the oral contents into the surrounding air in a mist.
Our instuments to clean teeth (ultrasonic scalers) create the finest of mists.
Yet, less than 1% have tested positive. Remember, all these people spend most of their time outside of the dental office so it speaks well of their behaviour outside of the office also.

I took a walk today in my town's park. Here in California we are having the most significant of all Covid surges. My local hospitals have ICUs that are 100+% full.
The dog park had more people than I have seen in many months. AND...there were less masks inside that dog park than inside my car.

That is why we are having this problem.

Now, let us talk about soaring.

The gold-standard mask, the N-95 (which you can't get), properly worn and fitted, filters particles down to 135 nm; coronavirus particles are 70-90 nm.. Let's go more extreme, the Stryker Flyte Helmet (https://www.stryker..com/us/en/ortho...on-system.html) used in high-risk areas for its filtered air supply; this helmet IS INEFFECTIVE in protecting wearers from COVID (https://link.springer.com/article/10...-020-04796-3):

"Sterile surgical helmet systems (SSHS) do not protect against aerosol particulate and therefore are not efficacious in protection against COVID-19. The fan system employed may even increase risk to the surgeon by drawing in particulates as well as delay recognition of intraoperative cues, such as exhaust from diathermy, that point to respirator mask leak."

Now, tell me again how effective those cheap, throw-away masks are.

Tom
Wearing effective masks, like N-95, might allow instruction to begin sooner than later, if both
instructor and student wore them. N-95 masks are generally still in short supply, but that may
change in the next few months, about the time our (northern hemisphere) flying season begins.
Some KN-95 masks, which are readily available now, might also be suitable, but the suitability
specific KN-95 masks is harder to determine; hopefully, that will change.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Do not use N95 or KN95 masks with expiratory valves. They are protective for the user but project out a jet of potentially viral loaded aerosol or droplet spray. That might be acceptable e.g. for medics treating already infected patients but not for community protection.

2G commented on the particle filtration parameter of N95 being slightly larger than the viral diameter. That is irrelevant - we don't expire individual dry viral particles. The object is to filter out the viral loaded aerosol or droplet particles. Aerosol droplets have around 30-50 times larger diameter than the virus - and droplets much larger than that. A well fitted cloth mask is a lot better than no mask for the same reason.

Kudos to Guy Acheson who clearly has the knowledge as well as skin (literally) in the game.

The value of the use of measures such as masks was understood a century ago during the 1918 influenza epidemic and there were the same issues of variable regulations and recommendations within and between countries - and the same variable compliance. Many articles attest to this. Try:

https://theconversation.com/face-mas...pulsory-137648

Next time round I hope that the lessons are learned: early and widespread adoption of even less than perfect measures e.g. masks, social distancing, hand washing, adequate fresh air ventilation (not just air-con), testing, tracking, tracing and quarantining, would make a huge difference. That's the other side of the exponential spread coin. Most of these are things that all individuals can enact themselves.

On Wednesday, December 30, 2020 at 9:35:40 AM UTC-8, danlj wrote:
On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 9:30:07 AM UTC-6, wrote:
As I read it, that is NOT what that article says. Some extracts:
And rather than focusing on a single measure, the authors conclude that a more comprehensive response is what is really effective:

"The emerging picture reveals that no one-size-fits-all solution exists, and no single NPI can decrease Rt below one. Instead, in the absence of a vaccine or efficient antiviral medication, a resurgence of COVID-19 cases can be stopped only by a suitable combination of NPIs, each tailored to the specific country and its epidemic age. These measures must be enacted in the optimal combination and sequence to be maximally effective against the spread of SARS-CoV-2 and thereby enable more rapid reopening."

You really ought to read and understand the article before citing it.

Rich L.
Thank you, Rich, for posting this extract.
The virus knows no politics. Everyone, including scientists, were ignorant of its biology, best anti-infective measures, and best treatment a year ago. Facts, through research, have been steadily accumulating. Sadly, opinions are often strongly held, even by "authorities", that are dissonant with fact. The discipline of practicing clinical medicine is that one quickly learns that using opinion instead of fact to treat patients is a disaster for the patient, which makes us cautious. Most people are not faced continually with this potentially catastrophic error-checking by nature, so opinions float free.
DrDan Johnson

Dan, you might consider commenting about the actual data which showed that wearing PPE had little to no effectiveness. BTW, you are also welcome.

Tom

On Wednesday, December 30, 2020 at 7:18:26 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 12/29/2020 11:34 PM:
On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 6:30:38 PM UTC-8, Guy Acheson wrote:
The politics of Covid is astounding.

For those of you who question the effectiveness of masks...oh my

I am a dentist. We have been wearing masks 100% of the time in our offices from the beginning.
We require all patients/delivery persons/anyone who enters our office to be wearing a mask that covers BOTH their mouth and nose.
No...we do not allow mouth shields or face shields in place of a mask. They are not the same thing at all.

From January 2020 through September 2020, less than 1% of all people who work in a dental office have tested positive for Covid.
A dental office is probably the most dangerous place you could be with regards to an airborne infectious particle.
Our handpieces blow air in the mouth which ejects the oral contents into the surrounding air in a mist.
Our instuments to clean teeth (ultrasonic scalers) create the finest of mists.
Yet, less than 1% have tested positive. Remember, all these people spend most of their time outside of the dental office so it speaks well of their behaviour outside of the office also.

I took a walk today in my town's park. Here in California we are having the most significant of all Covid surges. My local hospitals have ICUs that are 100+% full.
The dog park had more people than I have seen in many months. AND...there were less masks inside that dog park than inside my car.

That is why we are having this problem.

Now, let us talk about soaring.

The gold-standard mask, the N-95 (which you can't get), properly worn and fitted, filters particles down to 135 nm; coronavirus particles are 70-90 nm.. Let's go more extreme, the Stryker Flyte Helmet (https://www.stryker..com/us/en/ortho...on-system.html) used in high-risk areas for its filtered air supply; this helmet IS INEFFECTIVE in protecting wearers from COVID (https://link.springer.com/article/10...-020-04796-3):

"Sterile surgical helmet systems (SSHS) do not protect against aerosol particulate and therefore are not efficacious in protection against COVID-19. The fan system employed may even increase risk to the surgeon by drawing in particulates as well as delay recognition of intraoperative cues, such as exhaust from diathermy, that point to respirator mask leak."

Now, tell me again how effective those cheap, throw-away masks are.

Tom
Wearing effective masks, like N-95, might allow instruction to begin sooner than later, if both
instructor and student wore them. N-95 masks are generally still in short supply, but that may
change in the next few months, about the time our (northern hemisphere) flying season begins.
Some KN-95 masks, which are readily available now, might also be suitable, but the suitability
specific KN-95 masks is harder to determine; hopefully, that will change.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Schools aren't opening because the teacher's unions are opposed to it regardless of PPE. I played golf one day recently with the husband of a teacher (and his wife) who flat-out said he didn't give a damn about the kids - he was only concerned about his wife's safety. Hopefully, the spouses of our doctors and nurses don't feel the same way.

Tom

On Wednesday, December 30, 2020 at 2:27:52 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Wednesday, December 30, 2020 at 7:18:26 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 12/29/2020 11:34 PM:
On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 6:30:38 PM UTC-8, Guy Acheson wrote:
The politics of Covid is astounding.

For those of you who question the effectiveness of masks...oh my

I am a dentist. We have been wearing masks 100% of the time in our offices from the beginning.
We require all patients/delivery persons/anyone who enters our office to be wearing a mask that covers BOTH their mouth and nose.
No...we do not allow mouth shields or face shields in place of a mask. They are not the same thing at all.

From January 2020 through September 2020, less than 1% of all people who work in a dental office have tested positive for Covid.
A dental office is probably the most dangerous place you could be with regards to an airborne infectious particle.
Our handpieces blow air in the mouth which ejects the oral contents into the surrounding air in a mist.
Our instuments to clean teeth (ultrasonic scalers) create the finest of mists.
Yet, less than 1% have tested positive. Remember, all these people spend most of their time outside of the dental office so it speaks well of their behaviour outside of the office also.

I took a walk today in my town's park. Here in California we are having the most significant of all Covid surges. My local hospitals have ICUs that are 100+% full.
The dog park had more people than I have seen in many months. AND...there were less masks inside that dog park than inside my car.

That is why we are having this problem.

Now, let us talk about soaring.

The gold-standard mask, the N-95 (which you can't get), properly worn and fitted, filters particles down to 135 nm; coronavirus particles are 70-90 nm.. Let's go more extreme, the Stryker Flyte Helmet (https://www.stryker.com/us/en/orthop...on-system.html) used in high-risk areas for its filtered air supply; this helmet IS INEFFECTIVE in protecting wearers from COVID (https://link.springer.com/article/10...-020-04796-3):

"Sterile surgical helmet systems (SSHS) do not protect against aerosol particulate and therefore are not efficacious in protection against COVID-19. The fan system employed may even increase risk to the surgeon by drawing in particulates as well as delay recognition of intraoperative cues, such as exhaust from diathermy, that point to respirator mask leak."

Now, tell me again how effective those cheap, throw-away masks are.

Tom
Wearing effective masks, like N-95, might allow instruction to begin sooner than later, if both
instructor and student wore them. N-95 masks are generally still in short supply, but that may
change in the next few months, about the time our (northern hemisphere) flying season begins.
Some KN-95 masks, which are readily available now, might also be suitable, but the suitability
specific KN-95 masks is harder to determine; hopefully, that will change.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
Schools aren't opening because the teacher's unions are opposed to it regardless of PPE. I played golf one day recently with the husband of a teacher (and his wife) who flat-out said he didn't give a damn about the kids - he was only concerned about his wife's safety. Hopefully, the spouses of our doctors and nurses don't feel the same way.

Tom

I remember as a young kid in my early years of education that the Cuban missile crisis required each of us to get under the desk in a crowded position and practice the event of a nuclear attack. The alarm would sound and the teacher would make sure that all the kids were tucked properly under the desk thinking that they would survive a nuclear attack. Well, the nuclear attack has been replaced by the COVID virus courtesy of the Chinese gov. Just yesterday the regime punished the journalist that exposed the virus, maybe he should get the Nobel prize. So protecting yourself and others is not as uncomfortable as crouching under the desk, so protect yourself and others. Bob

"Taiwan just went 200 days without a locally transmitted Covid-19 case. Here's how they did it:"

https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/29/asia/...hnk/index.html

Masks and partitions did most of the job.

Oh yes, individuals with suspect or confirmed infection were put up in hotels, fed, visited daily and given a stipend.

Everybody gets a weekly mask ration at low cost.

Meanwhile back at the headless chicken ranch...

Oh well. Nice try.............

RFH

On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 10:41:14 AM UTC-7, Bob Leve wrote:
I'm amazed at the number of seeming experts who are littering this site with passionately uninformed opinions yet don't seem to have the credentials or expertise of an infectious disease MD or actual governmental experience.
Lets get back to what this site is about: Sharing information about the wonderful sport of soaring!

If you believe in covaids and go recreational flying are you an immoral person?

On Wednesday, December 30, 2020 at 6:10:09 PM UTC-7, Gregg Ballou wrote:
If you believe in covaids and go recreational flying are you an immoral person?
The biggest tragedy is the influence of politics to science. If not for the political differences we wouldn't be having this discussion. Science should be science not something influenced by our ignorant (soon to be not) president.

On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 11:34:03 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 6:30:38 PM UTC-8, Guy Acheson wrote:
The politics of Covid is astounding.

For those of you who question the effectiveness of masks...oh my

I am a dentist. We have been wearing masks 100% of the time in our offices from the beginning.
We require all patients/delivery persons/anyone who enters our office to be wearing a mask that covers BOTH their mouth and nose.
No...we do not allow mouth shields or face shields in place of a mask. They are not the same thing at all.

From January 2020 through September 2020, less than 1% of all people who work in a dental office have tested positive for Covid.
A dental office is probably the most dangerous place you could be with regards to an airborne infectious particle.
Our handpieces blow air in the mouth which ejects the oral contents into the surrounding air in a mist.
Our instuments to clean teeth (ultrasonic scalers) create the finest of mists.
Yet, less than 1% have tested positive. Remember, all these people spend most of their time outside of the dental office so it speaks well of their behaviour outside of the office also.

I took a walk today in my town's park. Here in California we are having the most significant of all Covid surges. My local hospitals have ICUs that are 100+% full.
The dog park had more people than I have seen in many months. AND...there were less masks inside that dog park than inside my car.

That is why we are having this problem.

Now, let us talk about soaring.
The gold-standard mask, the N-95 (which you can't get), properly worn and fitted, filters particles down to 135 nm; coronavirus particles are 70-90 nm. Let's go more extreme, the Stryker Flyte Helmet (https://www.stryker.com/us/en/orthop...on-system.html) used in high-risk areas for its filtered air supply; this helmet IS INEFFECTIVE in protecting wearers from COVID (https://link.springer.com/article/10...-020-04796-3):

"Sterile surgical helmet systems (SSHS) do not protect against aerosol particulate and therefore are not efficacious in protection against COVID-19. The fan system employed may even increase risk to the surgeon by drawing in particulates as well as delay recognition of intraoperative cues, such as exhaust from diathermy, that point to respirator mask leak."

Now, tell me again how effective those cheap, throw-away masks are.

Tom
Two questions Tom. If you are with other people and you cough or sneeze do you cover your mouth? If so, why?

"The biggest tragedy is the influence of politics to science. If not for the political differences we wouldn't be having this discussion. Science should be science not something influenced by our ignorant (soon to be not) president. "

Yeah, Joe Biden is so brilliant.

I can understand why you admire him.