Combat Ready Bush?

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Ed Rasimus
confessed the following:

A very logical, reasoned and well-crafted entry to the argument. Can't
you at least save the scatology until the end/

touche'

We'll agree to disagree about gwb's interest versus the fact of rated
sup and the exodus to the airlines.

gwb lost interest, he never
said he was ineligble. gwb signed a statement of intent in 1968,
saying he planned to make flying in the TX ANG a life long commitment.

No one ever signed up for active or reserve duty to a "life long
commitment." No one. You had an active duty service commitment.

Poorly worded on my part. I'm not talking about the form we all signed
for accepting training. I'm talking about a "letter" of intent where
gwb professed that he wanted to fly and that he had a desire to make
flying a "life long" pursuit, and the best way to accomplish that was
as a pilot in the TX ANG.

Once again you are garbling full-time (the F-15A guy) who probably
accrued 1000 hours operational by the time he separated going to work
as an RTU IP (a full-time Guard slot).

Nope you assumed incorrectly...the co-worker was a fulltime airline
wienie flying as a part-time RTU IP.

"I know a guy" isn't a good basis for generalizations.

I know several, many exceptions...it proves ANG units can and do make
exceptions. So we'll ageree to disagree.

Good for you.

Thanks...I thought so.

A lot of guys I know kept flying for as long as they
could.... So what?

So what? Well you and I disagree on the motives of gwb's lack of
interest.

Robey

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 17:37:54 GMT, Robey Price
wrote:

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Ed Rasimus
confessed the following:

First, if your unit is transitioning to a new aircraft and you don't
have sufficient retainability to qualify for the re-qual, you don't
get trained. It isn't losing interest.

Bull**** and you know it. A 6 year obligation gives you sufficient
retainability. Period. The unit spent the time and money to send you
to UPT, the prudent thing (vice "fraud, waste, and abuse") would be to
get a return on the ANG's/AF's investment. gwb lost interest, he never
said he was ineligble. gwb signed a statement of intent in 1968,
saying he planned to make flying in the TX ANG a life long commitment.
There is no evidence that he even attempted to fulfill that "promise."
He never said he lost interest, but his action sure did.

For a guy that is reportedly well thought of as an F-102 pilot, the
unit didn't make the "fraternity rush" to keep him. A guy doesn't show
up or make an attempt to fly, the obvious conclusion is he lost
interest.

Second, if your unit is becoming a training squadron vice an
operational squadron and you don't have sufficient experience to
become an instructor in the training unit, you don't get upgraded. It
isn't losing interest.

As the training officer in a line squadron I processed paperwork to
make guys IPs with less than 500 hours...some approved some not. The
111th FIS still had F-102s on hand thru 1973. Plenty of time for a guy
that wanted to make the transition to get the minimum 500 hours. And
the USAF/ANG these nice things called "waivers."

Want proof? A co-worker flew F-15 Albinos, never dropped a bomb in his
life. Got hired as an A-7 RTU IP at Tuscon when the wing was
converting to F-16s. He flew the SLUF for 10 months. Then he
transitioned to the F-16. ANG/AFRes units hire C-5 pilots to be FACs,
F-16 guys to fly C-130s, C-141 pilots to fly A-10s.

If a unit thinks highly enough of a guy/gal they will hire them. ANG
units favor folks already in the unit...happens all the time.

Fifth, some folks don't have an all-encompassing interest in flying
fighters for a career. They may have other goals and ambitions.
Nothing at all unusual about that.

True enough, but everyone I ever met kept flying as long as they
could.

I notice that Bush flew T-33s towards the last. I wonder if that
included hauling around a chaff tank and jamming pod?
For active duty that would seem to be a job to keep your flying time
up and look ahead for brighter days when you might be able to get back
into the cockpit of something else full time. For Bush it might have
seemed like there was no light at the end of the tunnel. When you are
hauling a chaff tank and pod around on a T-33 and you have flown a set
profile for interceptor training I don't imagine there is much fun
flying afterwards with all that junk hanging off the wings...

wrote in
om:

Robey Price wrote in message
. ..

How do you lose interest in flying fighters so fast?

Robey

Sir,
It is said that he found a more satisfying 'high'.
Do the annual military aviator physicals include drug tests for coke?

Depends what time period you are asking about.
Today the answer would be yes.
In the early 70's it depends apparently.

IBM

__________________________________________________ _____________________________
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Sir,

I'd like to start my counter-argument with the President's motivation
for entering the ANG. G.W. Bush stated to the Dallas Morning News
that, "I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in
order to get a deferment.
Nor was I willing to go to Canada." (MSNBC
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4271520/ )

If G.W. Bush could pass a Class A flight physical, he could have
joined practically any active-duty unit that deployed to SEA. Simply,
George Bush did not answer his country's call in its most difficult
times.

Whether or not he was a good fighter pilot becomes irrelevant if he
was vaulted over 500 other candidates for a intensely competetive ANG
billet with a 25% score in his pilot's aptitude test. (Washington Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer)

After earning the coveted US Air Force wings at the cost of several
hundred thousand dollars to the American Taxpayers, he completes less
than 200 flight hours in F-102 Daggers





Ed Rasimus wrote in message
Third, drug testing was not routine during the period in question. It
was available to commanders on a "suspicion" basis but seldom
applicable to aircrews. Random drug testing for lower rank enlisted
came into practice in '73-74 and was expanded to all ranks by the end
of the decade long after Bush was discharged from the ANG.

Fourth, even when drug testing was instituted, it was NEVER part of a
flight physical which was a scheduled event--hence a druggie could
clean up before the physical. Drug testing was separate, done under
controlled conditions and with samples handled in a total different
chain than urinalysis from annual physicals.

Fifth, some folks don't have an all-encompassing interest in flying
fighters for a career. They may have other goals and ambitions.
Nothing at all unusual about that.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org

Wouldn't it be abnormal for a tactical aviator to rack up less than
200 hours in jets for the period he was in service, six years from
1968 to 1973?(Associated Press
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...uard_flights_7
)

Drug tests for aviators were implemented in April 1972. (Salon
Magazine http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/02/06/drugs/ ) His
next exam was for October of 1972, which he refused to attend, earning
him disqualification from flight status. He left the ANG in 1973, the
threat of injury or death in Vietnam having passed with the cease-fire
signed on January 1973.

Does he deserve to lead America when he himself refused to hear the
call to defend her?

wrote in message
om...
Sir,

I'd like to start my counter-argument with the President's motivation
for entering the ANG. G.W. Bush stated to the Dallas Morning News
that, "I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in
order to get a deferment.
Nor was I willing to go to Canada." (MSNBC
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4271520/ )

Yeah, and John Kerry is on record as saying the only reason he volunteered
for Swift boat duty was because at that time they were only involved in war
on its periphery, so that would be a great way for him to get his "combat
veteran" ticket punched without having to actually expose himself to combat.
So what?


If G.W. Bush could pass a Class A flight physical, he could have
joined practically any active-duty unit that deployed to SEA. Simply,
George Bush did not answer his country's call in its most difficult
times.

You are apparently of a mistaken view as to what "answering his country's
call" really means. He volunteered for ANG flight duty,and he made it
through the training program, versus taking his chances on the draft
lottery--how do you know he might not have drawn a lottery number that did
NOT get him drafted in the end? So in essence, he volunteered for a Guard
hitch, ensuring he was "answering his country's call", versus taking his
chances in regards to either being drafted or not. He went beyond that by
asking to volunteer for Palace Alert, but he did not have the necessary
experience to make him competitive for that program at that time. And before
you step on your crank, you might recall that when he joined the Guard, some
twenty thousand Guardsmen ( from both Army and Air contingents) had just
been sent off to active duty in Vietnam, with another ten thou or so ending
up elsewhere, in places like Korea (which was anything but a "cold" warzone
in the late sixties). he did answer his country's call--he just did not do
so in the exceedingly narrow view that you have chosen. So, what about all
of those active duty personnel who served at the same time, but never made
it to Vietnam--do you think *they* were not answering the call, either?
Maybe you think those active military personnel should have been able to
just decide for themselves where their duty locations were to be? I don't
think so.


Whether or not he was a good fighter pilot becomes irrelevant if he
was vaulted over 500 other candidates for a intensely competetive ANG
billet with a 25% score in his pilot's aptitude test. (Washington Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer)


That has yet to be proven--how many of those 500 could (a) pass the flight
aptitude test, (b) were willing to fly, and (c) were willing to take the
extensive time required for active duty for training (ADT) that went along
with getting qualified as a F-102 pilot? I doubt you can provide a concrete
answer to even one of those questions, and if you can't, then your claim
that he was unfairly vaulted over those other guys is baseless.


After earning the coveted US Air Force wings at the cost of several
hundred thousand dollars to the American Taxpayers, he completes less
than 200 flight hours in F-102 Daggers

So? You might care to read Ed's posts today in regards to the pilot
situation at the time, and then you'd have to recall that his unit had just
been changed from being an active air defense player to its new role of
serving as a training element for ANG interceptor crews. It was looking at
losing its remaining F-102's in the near term, and when you have a choice
between paying to requalify a junior part-time ANG pilot with little
expereince versus maybe instead taking some O-3 who just got off an active
duty tour with beaucoup hours in the aircraft you are transitioning to,
which do you think is the better deal for said taxpayers?

This ignores the fact that Guardsmen do move sometimes, and those moves can
require them to find a new unit closer to their new abodes. It is a
*part-time* job, for gosh sakes, not their most self-absorbing activity in
life.

Brooks



Ed Rasimus wrote in message
Third, drug testing was not routine during the period in question. It
was available to commanders on a "suspicion" basis but seldom
applicable to aircrews. Random drug testing for lower rank enlisted
came into practice in '73-74 and was expanded to all ranks by the end
of the decade long after Bush was discharged from the ANG.

Fourth, even when drug testing was instituted, it was NEVER part of a
flight physical which was a scheduled event--hence a druggie could
clean up before the physical. Drug testing was separate, done under
controlled conditions and with samples handled in a total different
chain than urinalysis from annual physicals.

Fifth, some folks don't have an all-encompassing interest in flying
fighters for a career. They may have other goals and ambitions.
Nothing at all unusual about that.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org

From:
Date: 9/11/2004 6:45 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Wouldn't it be abnormal for a tactical aviator to rack up less than
200 hours in jets for the period he was in service, six years from
1968 to 1973?(Associated Press

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...go_pr_wh/bush_
guard_flights_7
)

Drug tests for aviators were implemented in April 1972. (Salon
Magazine http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/02/06/drugs/ ) His
next exam was for October of 1972, which he refused to attend, earning
him disqualification from flight status. He left the ANG in 1973, the
threat of injury or death in Vietnam having passed with the cease-fire
signed on January 1973.

Does he deserve to lead America when he himself refused to hear the
call to defend her?

So what military service do you have? You display an amazing lack of
understanding how the system works.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

wrote in message
om...
Wouldn't it be abnormal for a tactical aviator to rack up less than
200 hours in jets for the period he was in service, six years from
1968 to 1973?(Associated Press

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...uard_flights_7
)

Having a hard time adding up hours today? He had some 320 plus hours in the
F-102, plus whatever hours he chalked up in the T-33, T-37, and T-38.


Drug tests for aviators were implemented in April 1972. (Salon
Magazine http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/02/06/drugs/ ) His
next exam was for October of 1972, which he refused to attend, earning
him disqualification from flight status. He left the ANG in 1973, the
threat of injury or death in Vietnam having passed with the cease-fire
signed on January 1973.

Your "source" merely refers to an old AF Reg without detailing what it said.
I'll take the words of folks like Ed, who say that drug testing was not a
normal part of the flight physical program. A little further research on
your own part will show that drug testing really did not get to be
widespread until late in the 1970's, long after Bush had left duty. And
IIRC, the only testing that was very widespread in those latter days was for
THC, which you don't get from cocaine, which is the narcotic that y'all
folks are always claiming Bush was regularly using. Even in the late
eighties, when I was on active duty, cocaine testing was the exception
because at *that* time you had to do the urinalysis within something like
72-96 hours of use in order to get a positive result (it has gotten better
since then); well aware of that because the CID guy who came to meet with me
about a suspected troopie cokehead (life as a battalion SDO was sometimes
quite interesting) was quite emphatic about having to do the test within a
very short timespan.


Does he deserve to lead America when he himself refused to hear the
call to defend her?

You have made it abundantly clear that you have no earthly idea what the
"call" is. Merely signing up for selective service and heeding the results
is one way of answering the "call", as is volunteering for service, even in
the Guard/Reserves. Bush joined the Guard after the first mobilization of
reservists was announced in early 1968, and before the second mobilization
was conducted. Between twenty and thrity thousand troops and airmen were
activated during those call ups, and an awful lot of them ended up in
Vietnam--about one hundred of them died there. If that ain't one way of
answering your "call", then I don't know what the hell you think one is.

Brooks

Sir,
It is said that he found a more satisfying 'high'.
Do the annual military aviator physicals include drug tests for coke?

Depends what time period you are asking about.
Today the answer would be yes.
In the early 70's it depends apparently.

IBM

Actually the answer today and for the past 15 years (in my case) has
been no. I've never been drug tested at a flight physical. I've been
randomly drug tested several (probably 20+) times in my career but
again never at a physical.

Lego
Viper driver

sharpest101 wrote:

Do the annual military aviator physicals include drug tests for coke?

No...and they never did.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"