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#21
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is an endorsement for High Performance, without reference to certain FAR
paragraph a valid endorsement? There are a variety of different endorsements, two of which you seem concerned: FAR61.31(e), Complex, defined as Retractable Gear, Flaps and Controllable Pitch Propeller (example, Piper Arrow 200HP, Beech Sundowner 200HP, retractable Cessna Skylane 235HP (also requires High Performance)) or a Seaplane without the retractable gear but has controllable pitch prop and flaps FAR61.31(f), High Performance, Engine with MORE THAN 200HP (example, Beech Bonanza 285HP, Fixed Gear Skylane 235HP) all of which normally have retract gear, prop and flaps Also there is: FAR61.31(g), Pressurized Aircraft at High Altitudes FAR61.31(i), Tail Wheel aircraft FAR61.31(j), Glider, for different launch methods BT "FryGuy" wrote in message 1... I have a couple of questions that are unclear to me regarding being a snip 2) What are the requirements for complex and high performance aircraft? I thought that an endorsement was required for planes with retractable gear and a adjustable prop and another for planes with a greater than 200 horsepower engine. In my log book I see an endorsement line for the HP (there isn't a FAR reference though) but not for the complex. I looked up "complex" in the FAR and could not find anything regarding this. 3) Ok, now the combination of the two. Lets say I do need an endorsment for the complex/HP aircraft. Can I log time as the safety pilot in this plane if I haven't yet gotten the endorsment for complex/HP? 91.109.b.2 says the safety pilot just needs to be a private pilot with the appropriate category and class ratings. |
#22
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On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:01:22 GMT, Andrew Koenig wrote:
Unless you hold an instructor or ATP certificate, you can only log PIC time for the period during which you are the sole manipulator of the controls. Robert Not true... if more than one pilot is required (pilot and safety Robert pilot) either one may be the PIC and log PIC. Hmmm... other posters differ from you on that. I think you're right -- you need separate endorsements for each kind of high-performance airplane. Robert Not true, an endorsement in a Cessna 210 is good for a Bonanza. That's because a Cessna 210 is both kinds at once, so if you're endorsed for a 210, you effectively have both endorsements. On the other hand, if you're endorsed for a Cessna 177RG, I don't think that endorsement is valid for a 182. The 177 has less than 200 HP? If it does then the 182 might not be valid for the 177 RG. Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member) www.rogerhalstead.com N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2) |
#23
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On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 21:10:41 -0400, Ron Rosenfeld
wrote: Rated in this context just refers to category and class (i.e. aircraft, single-engine land). That should be "airplane, ..." Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#24
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Andrew Koenig wrote
You're certainly right when you're talking about yourself because you have CFI and ATP certificates. But I still remember reading somewhere, probably in AOPA Pilot, that for rest of us mere mortals, only the sole manipulator of the controls can log PIC. Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! From a Western Region FAA web site: A private or commercial pilot may log PIC time when "acting as pilot-in-command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the - - - - regulations under which the flight is conducted". [61.51 (e)(1)(ii)] Normally, a safety pilot, required by regulations, who scans for traffic for a pilot flying under simulated instrument conditions is not pilot-in-command and thus logs second-in-command. However, if the two pilots agree that the safety pilot is designated pilot-in- command, the safety pilot/pilot-in-command may log PIC since he is the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft. The pilot flying is "sole manipulator of the controls for which the pilot is rated"" and may also log PIC. Therefore, two private pilots may log PIC under these conditions. However, the safety pilot/pilot-in-command must realize that anything that occurs during the flight is his responsibility. Airspace violations, non- compliance with ATC instructions, near mid air collision, and runway incursions on the ground are all now charged to the safety pilot. A recent article in a monthly aviation publications discussed a flight where there was a violation and the two pilots disagreed who was pilot-in-command. Everyone in this thread would do well to check this web site. http://www.awp.faa.gov/new/fsdo/art_pilot.htm Bob Moore |
#26
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I got my endorsement sometime in the late 80s and mine is one endorsement.
It was a ink stamp that the instructor had that called it a "High Performance/Complex Airplane Endorsement". I did how ever do all my training in a non high performance 200hp Piper Arrow. -- Jim Burns III Remove "nospam" to reply "Ace Pilot" wrote in message om... FAR 61.31 says that no endorsement is needed if you have logged PIC time in that kind of aircraft (complex or high performance) prior to August 4, 1997. Does anyone remember what the required endorsement(s) was/were prior to this date? Were there 2 endorsements, or was there only one covering complex and high performance aircraft? More than once, I've wondered what the regs were prior to some change. Does anyone know of a web site that allows you to look up what the regs were on a certain date? |
#27
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As you have already seen, lots of people seem to remember private
interpretations or letters from the FAA ruling one way or another. The regulations say that you have to be rated in category and class to act as safety pilot. That means a pilot certified for airplane single engine land can act as safety pilot in any single engine land airplane, from a Pilatus PC-12 to a Cessna 152. The appropriate FAR says: (b) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless -- (1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown. There is no regulatory requirement that you be able to act as PIC in order to log PIC under any circumstances. In fact the FARs are quite clear about when you may log PIC: (e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person -- (i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated; (ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or (iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted. A strict reading of these two regulations would indicate that a private pilot holding a certificated for single engine land airplanes may log PIC for the time he is acting as safety pilot in a complex or high performance airplane whether he is signed off for those airplanes or not. Others in the FAA or anywhere else may differ in their personal opinions and may even have written letters or articles stating their opinions, but those letters and articles are just that: opinions. It should be remembered that many of these people are attempting to enforce their opinion when they could not get their ideas enacted in the regulations. They lost in committee and review, so now they are attempting to mold public behavior through threats and intimidation. If the regulations do not mean what they say, then the regulations need to be amended. Until then, the regulations have the force of law. All of that being the case, my own personal opinion is that any pilot would be very foolish to attempt to act as safety pilot in any airplane that he was not fully qualified to operate. I think the regulations should be changed. But right now the regulations are specific: you may act as safety pilot and log PIC while doing it. There are no loopholes, gray areas, or private interpretations here that make a convincing argument that the regulations do not permit it. |
#28
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"C J Campbell" wrote in message A strict reading of these two regulations would indicate that a private pilot holding a certificated for single engine land airplanes may log PIC for the time he is acting as safety pilot in a complex or high performance airplane whether he is signed off for those airplanes or not. No a strict reading doesn't say that. He may be a safety pilot, as that requires only ratings. He can not log safety pilot time as PIC time as he can not legally be PIC. |
#29
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Ron is entirely correct on this. I have heard this many times during
pilot examiner school in OKC. The policy statements explained to me from AFS-640 are very clear about this. You must be totally qualified and legal to fly the bird by yourself in order to log PIC as a safety pilot. (medical, category and class, flight review, and proper 61.31 endorsements) The regulations themselves are clear: In order to BE the PIC and be the safety pilot, (and thats the only way a non-CFI, non-manipulator can log PIC time in single pilot airplanes as a safety pilot), you must meet ALL the prerequisites. On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:47:33 -0400, "Ron Natalie" wrote: "C J Campbell" wrote in message A strict reading of these two regulations would indicate that a private pilot holding a certificated for single engine land airplanes may log PIC for the time he is acting as safety pilot in a complex or high performance airplane whether he is signed off for those airplanes or not. No a strict reading doesn't say that. He may be a safety pilot, as that requires only ratings. He can not log safety pilot time as PIC time as he can not legally be PIC. |
#30
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"Jim" wrote in message ...
It is my understanding (always subject to correction) that as a safety pilot you may log PIC time because you are indeed a required crew member for the operation. However, to log PIC time you also must be qualified to act as PIC of that particular aircraft. Well you could log SIC, but to log PIC but must **BE** pilot in command, not just qualified. To log SIC you only need cat/class/type if required. |
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