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#21
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VOR approach SMO
On Jul 23, 5:07 pm, "pgbnh" wrote:
I think all but one of the posters have missed the fact that the MDA is not 1120 but 680. If indeed the vis was 3 miles, then the runway should have been in sight from the MDA of 680 feet about a mile OUTSIDE of Culve. (Remember what you can do once you have the runway in sight????) At which point it's not a particularly big deal to lose 500 feet to land on the numbers. Maybe even crossing Culve at 3-400 feet agl Please, tell me how you read the plate in a way that you can cross CULVE below 1120 when you don't have the airport in sight? Note I am not an IA pilot, but I really want to understand this. My reading of the plate is: Cross CULVE at or above 1120. If you are DME equipped and radar, you can then descend to 680. Otherwise you gotta remain at 1120. If you get to the VOR before seeing the airport, you execute missed. Now if the conditions are 800 overcast 3mi, how can you see the airport before hitting CULVE unless you are below the crossing restriction? |
#22
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VOR approach SMO
You can cross CULVE at 680 because the chart says "CULVE DME/RADAR MINIMA*
680-1" You can descend to 680 past BEVEY. Look at the chart...........that's how it's read. Karl "Doug Semler" wrote in message ps.com... On Jul 23, 5:07 pm, "pgbnh" wrote: I think all but one of the posters have missed the fact that the MDA is not 1120 but 680. If indeed the vis was 3 miles, then the runway should have been in sight from the MDA of 680 feet about a mile OUTSIDE of Culve. (Remember what you can do once you have the runway in sight????) At which point it's not a particularly big deal to lose 500 feet to land on the numbers. Maybe even crossing Culve at 3-400 feet agl Please, tell me how you read the plate in a way that you can cross CULVE below 1120 when you don't have the airport in sight? Note I am not an IA pilot, but I really want to understand this. My reading of the plate is: Cross CULVE at or above 1120. If you are DME equipped and radar, you can then descend to 680. Otherwise you gotta remain at 1120. If you get to the VOR before seeing the airport, you execute missed. Now if the conditions are 800 overcast 3mi, how can you see the airport before hitting CULVE unless you are below the crossing restriction? |
#23
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VOR approach SMO
On Jul 23, 5:28 pm, "karl gruber" wrote:
You can cross CULVE at 680 because the chart says "CULVE DME/RADAR MINIMA* 680-1" You can descend to 680 past BEVEY. Look at the chart...........that's how it's read. So, iff you have DME and RADAR, the _1120_ in profile view changes to _680_, right? That is a *bit* confusing. |
#24
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VOR approach SMO
Note this is a VOR or GPS approach. Sorry if I just assumed that there would
be on-board EITHER a DME or an IFR certified GPS that would provide the distance-measuring requirements of the DME/Radar minima. Pretty good chance the jet in question had both. And maybe you understand this, but youir reference to Radar implies that maybe you do not. The 'Radar' reference is NOT referring to whether the plane is radar equipped, but rather whether there is radar coverage from the ground. Which in fact should allow an aircraft WITHOUT DME to descend to 680 (if receiving advisories from the tower/approach) "Doug Semler" wrote in message ps.com... On Jul 23, 5:07 pm, "pgbnh" wrote: I think all but one of the posters have missed the fact that the MDA is not 1120 but 680. If indeed the vis was 3 miles, then the runway should have been in sight from the MDA of 680 feet about a mile OUTSIDE of Culve. (Remember what you can do once you have the runway in sight????) At which point it's not a particularly big deal to lose 500 feet to land on the numbers. Maybe even crossing Culve at 3-400 feet agl Please, tell me how you read the plate in a way that you can cross CULVE below 1120 when you don't have the airport in sight? Note I am not an IA pilot, but I really want to understand this. My reading of the plate is: Cross CULVE at or above 1120. If you are DME equipped and radar, you can then descend to 680. Otherwise you gotta remain at 1120. If you get to the VOR before seeing the airport, you execute missed. Now if the conditions are 800 overcast 3mi, how can you see the airport before hitting CULVE unless you are below the crossing restriction? |
#25
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VOR approach SMO
Correct. That's why there's a little * next to the 1120*.
Karl "Doug Semler" wrote in message oups.com... On Jul 23, 5:28 pm, "karl gruber" wrote: You can cross CULVE at 680 because the chart says "CULVE DME/RADAR MINIMA* 680-1" You can descend to 680 past BEVEY. Look at the chart...........that's how it's read. So, iff you have DME and RADAR, the _1120_ in profile view changes to _680_, right? That is a *bit* confusing. |
#26
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VOR approach SMO
Exactly, you don't need DME or GPS. ATC can tell you where CULVE
is........with THEIR Radar. Karl "pgbnh" wrote in message . .. Note this is a VOR or GPS approach. Sorry if I just assumed that there would be on-board EITHER a DME or an IFR certified GPS that would provide the distance-measuring requirements of the DME/Radar minima. Pretty good chance the jet in question had both. And maybe you understand this, but youir reference to Radar implies that maybe you do not. The 'Radar' reference is NOT referring to whether the plane is radar equipped, but rather whether there is radar coverage from the ground. Which in fact should allow an aircraft WITHOUT DME to descend to 680 (if receiving advisories from the tower/approach) "Doug Semler" wrote in message ps.com... On Jul 23, 5:07 pm, "pgbnh" wrote: I think all but one of the posters have missed the fact that the MDA is not 1120 but 680. If indeed the vis was 3 miles, then the runway should have been in sight from the MDA of 680 feet about a mile OUTSIDE of Culve. (Remember what you can do once you have the runway in sight????) At which point it's not a particularly big deal to lose 500 feet to land on the numbers. Maybe even crossing Culve at 3-400 feet agl Please, tell me how you read the plate in a way that you can cross CULVE below 1120 when you don't have the airport in sight? Note I am not an IA pilot, but I really want to understand this. My reading of the plate is: Cross CULVE at or above 1120. If you are DME equipped and radar, you can then descend to 680. Otherwise you gotta remain at 1120. If you get to the VOR before seeing the airport, you execute missed. Now if the conditions are 800 overcast 3mi, how can you see the airport before hitting CULVE unless you are below the crossing restriction? |
#27
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VOR approach SMO
On Jul 23, 2:07 pm, "pgbnh" wrote:
I think all but one of the posters have missed the fact that the MDA is not 1120 but 680. Generally people who's method of explaining things starts by insulting them, telling them that they don't know what they are doing, and then explaining that he's much smarter than everyone else have a more difficult time explaining things. Sadly, the one poster you referenced uses this has his methodology. Let's all pray that he's not a CFI. -Robert |
#28
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VOR approach SMO
On Jul 23, 2:12 pm, "karl gruber" wrote:
No. You can be 6.7 miles out at 680/DME. ATC certainly never offered that but I guess I never asked. They keep you at 4,000 until about 3 miles outside of CULVE. Maybe for Burbank traffic?? Remeber this is VERY busy airspace and ATC has very small windows for you. -Robert |
#29
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VOR approach SMO
In article ,
"karl gruber" wrote: No. You can be 6.7 miles out at 680/DME. Maybe I'm just thick, but that's not how I read the chart. After DARTS, you can descend to 2600. After BEVEY, you can descend to 1120. What happens after that depends on whether you can identify CULVE or not. If you can identify CULVE, once you reach it, you can descend to 680. Without CULVE, you have to stay at 1120 until you have the runway in sight. Look at the plan view. There's a 863 tower at what looks like about 1/2 mile right of the FAC. I'm sure that's the controlling terrain for the 1120 MDA between BEVEY and CULVE. To identify CULVE, you need one of two things: either DME in the aircraft, or the tower has to be open AND you have to be in radar contact. It doesn't explicitly say so on the chart, but I assume the tower has a BRITE scope in the cab with CULVE marked on it and will call it for you on tower frequency. CULVE is 1.6 nm from the threshold. If you cross it at 1120, you're 945 feet AGL (referenced to the runway surface). So, to hit the numbers, you need to keep a 590 ft/nm descent gradient from CULVE to the runway. Looking at it another way, at 90 kts and no wind, you need an 885 ft/min descent rate. That's fast, but not outrageously so. It's about twice as steep as an ILS. It's certainly the kind of approach you need to brief ahead of time and know what you're going to need to do before you get there. |
#30
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VOR approach SMO
In article
, Hamish Reid wrote: The other point is that you're on an approach with a lot of faster aircraft behind you, and I'm sure the temptation is to keep going like a bat out of hell right up until the MDA, at which point you don't have a lot of time and space to slow down. That hasn't happened to me, but I can understand why it might. I was asked for best forward speed all the way from somewhere out near OHIGH to CULVE. You worry about flying the approach and let ATC worry about the aircraft behind you. If you're not comfortable flying it any faster than 90 kts, when they ask you for best speed, just tell them 90 kts IS your best speed. They'll deal with it. |
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