A problem in the Military ?

Here is another, slightly differant post of the original artical that I
found along with some research on the fratrinization thing.....
My research: according to
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/.../aa061702b.htm - "Army
fraternization policies are contained in Army Regulation 600-20, Army
Command Policy. (Note: The term "officer" as used below includes both
commissioned and warrant officers). Certain types of personal relationships
between officers and enlisted personnel are prohibited....Dating, shared
living accommodations other than those directed by operational requirements,
and intimate or sexual relationships between officers and enlisted
personnel."
The artical goes into more detail, but I beleave that clarifies that
what they were doing was wrong. I hope that one day the Army can stop
things like this from happening.

Sunny

The artical...


Let's get this out fix this problem so hopefully it won't happen when our
soldiers return from Iraq.

December 31, 2002
"The hard right over the easy wrong", "What goes TDY, stays
TDY", "Screw-up and move up", we have all heard these sayings before but
just how true are they? Well I'd like to tell you a story and let you
decide.
A few years ago a women deployed to Bosnia with the 3rd Armored Cavalry
Regiment in support of SFOR7. She was a SPC, an avionics tech, married and
the mother of three children. While in Bosnia she met a man. He was a CW3,
OH-58 pilot, also married with children. They would both call back every
few days to their spouses and say that all was well. But it
wasn't, the SPC and CW3 were having an affair. The affair started not long
after they arrived in Bosnia and lasted almost until their redeployment, 8
months later.
They would eat, watch movies, and go on trips together. They would
also meet in his office late at night, after he finished his night flights.
They spent a lot of time together, so much time that rumors started. But no
one cared to look into the rumors, too much trouble maybe? When they called
their spouses, they would even warn them that rumors were going about and
not to worry, the rumors weren't true.
She was promoted to SGT and even earned her Spurs, while having an affair
with a Chief Warrant Officer. He continued to fly and earn his flight pay
while getting his "Becky fix", a term they used for their private moments.
But, as all things do, the affair was found out.
Not by some one with them in Bosnia, but by her husband. The rumors where
too much and he confronted her. She admitted to her husband that yes she
was sleeping with this pilot, whom he also knew. So the affair stopped (?)
and they returned home to FT. Carson, CO. In time her marriage ended, but
not her career. She applied for and was accepted to the
Warrant Officer Flight program and is now a WO1 attending flight school at
Ft. Rucker, AL. The pilot? He is still flying and is now a maintenance test
pilot. She earned her promotion and her Spurs, but did she disserve them?
Screw-up and move up?
The base in Bosnia was small and everyone knew just about everyone. So
I wonder how their affair was missed. The Army has a policy about
relationships between enlisted and officers. In basically states that
officers and enlisted personnel will not have improper relationships. It
goes on to define "improper" as anything other then professional. I think
eating alone, going to the movies, and going on MWR trips together would
fall under the improper category. One of the duties of a NCO is to know
your soldiers. It's hard to believe that her Squad Leader, Platoon
Sergeant, and First Sergeant did not notice that something might be going on
between her and this CW3. Where they just bad NCO's who didn't care or did
they see the problem and decide it was just too hard to confront? The easy
wrong over the hard right? What about his peers and superiors? Didn't they
notice either? What goes TDY, stays TDY? What about the command? Well a
few months after the 3d ACR returned to Ft. Carson someone spoke up about
the affair and an investigation was started. The SGT was asked about her
relationship with the CW3 and she said they were just friends and the
investigation was dropped. A short time later her packet for Warrant
Officer was approved and letters of recommendation signed. Maybe the
command was just wanted her to quietly disappear. The "Not my problem
anymore" syndrome? A lot of people who were with them in Bosnia knew about
or at least suspect that they were having an affair. My question is how
come no one said anything about it? Is the Army fostering a climate were
actions like this are ok? Are the soldiers being taught by example that as
long as you don't get caught in the act it's ok? As long as they do their
job, no one cares what they do in their off time? Are our leaders afraid to
confront soldiers about their personal life? Do we expect our soldiers to
follow the Army values or are the Army values just lip service?
I hope that the Army can train its leaders to be more perceptive and
not afraid to approach a problem which may be "touchy" and embarrassing. To
guide and mentor our soldiers to do the right thing and to up hold the Army
values.
This story is true. How do I know? Because the SGT in this story is
Rebecca Beasley (now WO1 Rebecca Clark) ) and
the CW3 is Edwin Annis ).

Subject: A problem in the Military ?
From: "Sunny"
Date: 3/4/04 11:43 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Here is another, slightly differant post of the original artical that I
found along with some research on the fratrinization thing.....
My research: according to
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/.../aa061702b.htm - "Army
fraternization policies are contained in Army Regulation 600-20, Army
Command Policy. (Note: The term "officer" as used below includes both
commissioned and warrant officers). Certain types of personal relationships
between officers and enlisted personnel are prohibited....Dating, shared
living accommodations other than those directed by operational requirements,
and intimate or sexual relationships between officers and enlisted
personnel."
The artical goes into more detail, but I beleave that clarifies that
what they were doing was wrong. I hope that one day the Army can stop
things like this from happening.

Sunny

The artical...


Let's get this out fix this problem so hopefully it won't happen when our
soldiers return from Iraq.

December 31, 2002
"The hard right over the easy wrong", "What goes TDY, stays
TDY", "Screw-up and move up", we have all heard these sayings before but
just how true are they? Well I'd like to tell you a story and let you
decide.
A few years ago a women deployed to Bosnia with the 3rd Armored Cavalry
Regiment in support of SFOR7. She was a SPC, an avionics tech, married and
the mother of three children. While in Bosnia she met a man. He was a CW3,
OH-58 pilot, also married with children. They would both call back every
few days to their spouses and say that all was well. But it
wasn't, the SPC and CW3 were having an affair. The affair started not long
after they arrived in Bosnia and lasted almost until their redeployment, 8
months later.
They would eat, watch movies, and go on trips together. They would
also meet in his office late at night, after he finished his night flights.
They spent a lot of time together, so much time that rumors started. But no
one cared to look into the rumors, too much trouble maybe? When they called
their spouses, they would even warn them that rumors were going about and
not to worry, the rumors weren't true.
She was promoted to SGT and even earned her Spurs, while having an affair
with a Chief Warrant Officer. He continued to fly and earn his flight pay
while getting his "Becky fix", a term they used for their private moments.
But, as all things do, the affair was found out.
Not by some one with them in Bosnia, but by her husband. The rumors where
too much and he confronted her. She admitted to her husband that yes she
was sleeping with this pilot, whom he also knew. So the affair stopped (?)
and they returned home to FT. Carson, CO. In time her marriage ended, but
not her career. She applied for and was accepted to the
Warrant Officer Flight program and is now a WO1 attending flight school at
Ft. Rucker, AL. The pilot? He is still flying and is now a maintenance test
pilot. She earned her promotion and her Spurs, but did she disserve them?
Screw-up and move up?
The base in Bosnia was small and everyone knew just about everyone. So
I wonder how their affair was missed. The Army has a policy about
relationships between enlisted and officers. In basically states that
officers and enlisted personnel will not have improper relationships. It
goes on to define "improper" as anything other then professional. I think
eating alone, going to the movies, and going on MWR trips together would
fall under the improper category. One of the duties of a NCO is to know
your soldiers. It's hard to believe that her Squad Leader, Platoon
Sergeant, and First Sergeant did not notice that something might be going on
between her and this CW3. Where they just bad NCO's who didn't care or did
they see the problem and decide it was just too hard to confront? The easy
wrong over the hard right? What about his peers and superiors? Didn't they
notice either? What goes TDY, stays TDY? What about the command? Well a
few months after the 3d ACR returned to Ft. Carson someone spoke up about
the affair and an investigation was started. The SGT was asked about her
relationship with the CW3 and she said they were just friends and the
investigation was dropped. A short time later her packet for Warrant
Officer was approved and letters of recommendation signed. Maybe the
command was just wanted her to quietly disappear. The "Not my problem
anymore" syndrome? A lot of people who were with them in Bosnia knew about
or at least suspect that they were having an affair. My question is how
come no one said anything about it? Is the Army fostering a climate were
actions like this are ok? Are the soldiers being taught by example that as
long as you don't get caught in the act it's ok? As long as they do their
job, no one cares what they do in their off time? Are our leaders afraid to
confront soldiers about their personal life? Do we expect our soldiers to
follow the Army values or are the Army values just lip service?
I hope that the Army can train its leaders to be more perceptive and
not afraid to approach a problem which may be "touchy" and embarrassing. To
guide and mentor our soldiers to do the right thing and to up hold the Army
values.
This story is true. How do I know? Because the SGT in this story is
Rebecca Beasley (now WO1 Rebecca Clark) ) and
the CW3 is Edwin Annis ).



What! Sex in the military. Terrible. Must be something new. Besides, who cares?



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

I agree with Steve on this except one point....We have to do something about
this. I can't accept that it will never get fixed. What I don't know is
what to do. Do we send this story to our military leaders in the hopes that
they will "fix it"? I've seen another version of this story (see my earler
post) and I'm sure there are more like it, so maybe the "word" is out?
I'm all for males and females in the Army, but there has got to be something
that can be done to stop problems like this.

Sunny

"Leslie Swartz" wrote in message
...
Nick and All:

The tragic story related below is the norm, not the exception. The
poisons that flow- continuously- into our system of discipline and morale
from these situations erode unit cohesion, respect, and esprit to a degree
far greater than the leadership ostriches would care to recognize.

I've been in the war since 1978 and situations like this have existed
and
transpired at virtually every unit I have ever been assigned to. In every
case, superior-subordinate relationship or not, sexual relations among
servicemembers (married or not) create distrust, feelings of inequity,
loss
of respect, and a general sense of what the army types call "Drama."

Even if nobody gets pregnant- even if nobody files a grievance- even if
nobody gets divorced- even if the woman doesn't throw the trump (rape)
card-
even under the most "happy ending" of circumstances, these situations (at
best) erode mission effectiveness in incalculable ways.

Is this a hidden cost of gender integration? Is this a natural result
of
hormones + stress = sex? Is the problem not the sex, but the reactions of
those not directly involved?

We can't begin to solve this problem until first, we recognize there is
a
problem; and second, determine exactly what the problem is. But due to
the
questions this problem will inevitably raise, we will never reach the firs
t
step. I have had this conversation with many commanders and colleagues
over
the years. Recognizing that there is a problem in the first place is
something the leadership will never be able to stand.


Steve Swartz


snip see my earlier post for the story...

Sunny wrote:
We have to do something about
this. I can't accept that it will never get fixed. What I don't know is
what to do. Do we send this story to our military leaders in the hopes
that
they will "fix it"? I've seen another version of this story (see my
earler
post) and I'm sure there are more like it, so maybe the "word" is out?
I'm all for males and females in the Army, but there has got to be
something
that can be done to stop problems like this.

Got news for you. As long as boys and girls serve together,
there's going to be hanky-panky going on. Some of said
hanky-panky will involve cases where one or both (or more?)
of the players are married. To other people. Anyone who tries
to stop it will just look like an idiot. You could make it a
capital offense and it would still happen, even if you were
dealing with servicemembers who are not in a life-threatening
environment.

This is a fact of life in our society, it happens in every workplace
today and every day.

And publishing the names of the allegedly involved parties
is scurrilous.



Jeff

Good points, perhaps you are right. Perhaps it is just Human nature.
As for the names, I agree, but since this posting was already posted (I just
copied it) I felt the "damage" was already done.

Sunny

"Jeff Crowell" wrote in message
...
Sunny wrote:
We have to do something about
this. I can't accept that it will never get fixed. What I don't know
is
what to do. Do we send this story to our military leaders in the hopes
that
they will "fix it"? I've seen another version of this story (see my
earler
post) and I'm sure there are more like it, so maybe the "word" is out?
I'm all for males and females in the Army, but there has got to be
something
that can be done to stop problems like this.

Got news for you. As long as boys and girls serve together,
there's going to be hanky-panky going on. Some of said
hanky-panky will involve cases where one or both (or more?)
of the players are married. To other people. Anyone who tries
to stop it will just look like an idiot. You could make it a
capital offense and it would still happen, even if you were
dealing with servicemembers who are not in a life-threatening
environment.

This is a fact of life in our society, it happens in every workplace
today and every day.

And publishing the names of the allegedly involved parties
is scurrilous.



Jeff

On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 12:44:08 -0700, "Jeff Crowell"
wrote:

Sunny wrote:
We have to do something about
this. I can't accept that it will never get fixed. What I don't know is
what to do. Do we send this story to our military leaders in the hopes
that
they will "fix it"? I've seen another version of this story (see my
earler
post) and I'm sure there are more like it, so maybe the "word" is out?
I'm all for males and females in the Army, but there has got to be
something
that can be done to stop problems like this.

Got news for you. As long as boys and girls serve together,
there's going to be hanky-panky going on. Some of said
hanky-panky will involve cases where one or both (or more?)
of the players are married. To other people. Anyone who tries
to stop it will just look like an idiot. You could make it a
capital offense and it would still happen, even if you were
dealing with servicemembers who are not in a life-threatening
environment.

This is a fact of life in our society, it happens in every workplace
today and every day.

And publishing the names of the allegedly involved parties
is scurrilous.



Jeff

Not to mention that many of us would see our name and if it was done
in error would bring slande law suits that would rake in millions.

Or maybe go to the printer and kick their ass.



--
Life is routine punctuated by orgies.

Don't know where I have been, sort of hazy, no will not have to kill ya,
just it is not much worth remembering..

Mike


Admin wrote:

"Abrigon Gusiq" wrote in message
...
I forget what article it is, but yes it is actions unbecomming of an
officer or like terms.

Also things depend on:

Was he in her chain of command?
Did the commander of this unit order her to stop or face charges.

Much like that female officer that was doing much the same, like in
1990?
She was ordered to stop having an affair or relationship with an
enlisted solider if I remember right, and she refused. She was brought
up on charges of not following a lawful order and was booted last I
heard?

But, yes, seen it to many times. One of my former units, it became a
problems when the gals got promitions and special treats cause they were
sleeping with one of the officers..

When it becomes to a point that it is degrading the performance of the
unit, the commander if he knows, and does nothing is just as guilty as
the persons who are doing the "dating".. Dereliction of duty I believe
is the term?

Mike
Alaska

Heh, I met my soon to be Major boss, while I a Specialist was making
passes at a female Lieutenent pilot, so was he.. It made working with
him possibly interesting.. This was years ago. Demi Moorse looks damn
good with short hair. More women should cut it that short.

Mike, where you been.

Question is, why not just instead of making them a Commissioned Chief
Warrent Officer 2, why not just make them a Captain or atleast a 1st
Lieutenant?

Mike

Me,I am waiting to see what happenes, when women in the Army, have to do
the same things that the males do, and are exposed to the same problems
of the field. Such as ticks, lice, lack of water, and more..

There is a good reason why men have short hair, it is easier to
maintain, as well as easier to keep ticks/fleas and like out. As well as
hard to keep long hair clean when you lack time, water and all.. And god
help ya if you want to do your nails, and all?

True about fraternization, just how it goes, and it can be fun to watch
in a sad way. Intelligent men, suddenly become morons cause of a women..
Or the reverse..

Mike


Leslie Swartz wrote:

Nick and All:

The tragic story related below is the norm, not the exception. The
poisons that flow- continuously- into our system of discipline and morale
from these situations erode unit cohesion, respect, and esprit to a degree
far greater than the leadership ostriches would care to recognize.

I've been in the war since 1978 and situations like this have existed and
transpired at virtually every unit I have ever been assigned to. In every
case, superior-subordinate relationship or not, sexual relations among
servicemembers (married or not) create distrust, feelings of inequity, loss
of respect, and a general sense of what the army types call "Drama."

Even if nobody gets pregnant- even if nobody files a grievance- even if
nobody gets divorced- even if the woman doesn't throw the trump (rape) card-
even under the most "happy ending" of circumstances, these situations (at
best) erode mission effectiveness in incalculable ways.

Is this a hidden cost of gender integration? Is this a natural result of
hormones + stress = sex? Is the problem not the sex, but the reactions of
those not directly involved?

We can't begin to solve this problem until first, we recognize there is a
problem; and second, determine exactly what the problem is. But due to the
questions this problem will inevitably raise, we will never reach the first
step. I have had this conversation with many commanders and colleagues over
the years. Recognizing that there is a problem in the first place is
something the leadership will never be able to stand.

Steve Swartz

"Nick Jade" NickJade(at)hotmail(dot)com wrote in message
...
Let's get this out fix this problem so hopefully it won't happen when our
soldiers return from Iraq.








December 31, 2002





"The hard right over the easy wrong", "What goes TDY, stays
TDY"
, "Screw-up and move up", we have all heard these sayings before but just
how true are they? Well I'd like to tell you a story and let you decide.



A few years ago a women deployed to Bosnia with the 3rd
Armored
Cavalry Regiment in support of SFOR7. She was a SPC, an avionics tech,
married and the mother of three children. While in Bosnia she met a man.
He was a CW3, OH-58 pilot, also married with children. They would both
call
back every few days to their spouses and say that all was well. But it
wasn
't, the SPC and CW3 were having an affair. The affair started not long
after they arrived in Bosnia and lasted almost until their redeployment, 8
months later.

They would eat, watch movies, and go on trips together. They
would also meet in his office late at night, after he finished his night
flights. They spent a lot of time together, so much time that rumors
started. But no one cared to look into the rumors, too much trouble
maybe?
When they called their spouses, they would even warn them that rumors were
going about and not to worry, the rumors weren't true.

She was promoted to SGT and even earned her Spurs, while
having
an affair with a Chief Warrant Officer. He continued to fly and earn his
flight pay while getting his "Becky fix", a term they used for their
private
moments. But, as all things do, the affair was found out.

Not by some one with them in Bosnia, but by her husband. The
rumors where too much and he confronted her. She admitted to her husband
that yes she was sleeping with this pilot, whom he also knew. So the
affair
stopped (?) and they returned home to FT. Carson, CO. In time her
marriage
ended, but not her career. She applied for and was accepted to the
Warrant
Officer Flight program and is now a WO1 attending flight school at Ft.
Rucker, AL. The pilot? He is still flying and is now a maintenance test
pilot. She earned her promotion and her Spurs, but did she disserve them?
Screw-up and move up?

The base in Bosnia was small and everyone knew just about
everyone. So I wonder how their affair was missed. The Army has a policy
about relationships between enlisted and officers. In basically states
that
officers and enlisted personnel will not have improper relationships. It
goes on to define "improper" as anything other then professional. I think
eating alone, going to the movies, and going on MWR trips together would
fall under the improper category. One of the duties of a NCO is to know
your soldiers. It's hard to believe that her Squad Leader, Platoon
Sergeant, and First Sergeant did not notice that something might be going
on
between her and this CW3. Where they just bad NCO's who didn't care or
did
they see the problem and decide it was just too hard to confront? The
easy
wrong over the hard right? What about his peers and superiors? Didn't
they
notice either? What goes TDY, stays TDY?

What about the command? Well a few months after the 3d ACR
returned to Ft. Carson someone spoke up about the affair and an
investigation was started. The SGT was asked about her relationship with
the CW3 and she said they were just friends and the investigation was
dropped. A short time later her packet for Warrant Officer was approved
and
letters of recommendation signed. Maybe the command was just wanted her
to
quietly disappear. The "Not my problem anymore" syndrome?

A lot of people who were with them in Bosnia knew about or at
least suspect that they were having an affair. My question is how come no
one said anything about it? Is the Army fostering a climate were actions
like this are ok? Are the soldiers being taught by example that as long
as
you don't get caught in the act it's ok? As long as they do their job, no
one cares what they do in their off time? Are our leaders afraid to
confront soldiers about their personal life? Do we expect our soldiers to
follow the Army values or are the Army values just lip service?

I hope that the Army can train its leaders to be more
perceptive
and not afraid to approach a problem which may be "touchy" and
embarrassing.
To guide and mentor our soldiers to do the right thing and to up hold the
Army values.





This story is true. How do I know? Because the SGT in this
story was my wife, Rebecca Beasley (now WO1 Rebecca Clark) and the CW3 is
Edwin Annis. Now you maybe be wondering why I wrote this story. Maybe
it's
because I'm a hurt and angry ex-husband wanting to get back at his
ex-wife?
No, it's too late for that. But I am an NCO who has seen a soldier do a
terrible wrong and get away with it and I also have soldiers who have lost
faith in our system because of this. I also wrote this story because I am
tired of living this lie. How can I look my soldiers in the eye and
preach
to them about doing the hard right over the easy wrong and following the
Army values when I myself can't do it. I should have said something along
time ago. Now I will retire in a few years and when I do it will be with
a
clear conscious. So I wrote this letter for two reasons: as a NCO to
officially inform you of an incident which I believe was wrong and as a
man
who must live by his principles.

I also ask that you use this story as a training tool for our
soldiers and leaders. We have all heard stories like this one after major
deployments. I feel something must be done about it. Maybe it's time to
enforce a distinct separation between Officers, NCOs, and the soldiers.
Policies are written which do just that, but are they enforced?

Maybe this story can be re-written so as not to incriminate anyone and
shown
to our soldiers as an example of what can happen when we start believing
in
terms such as those stated at the beginning of this letter. I have been
in
for 20 years now and am tired of hearing "What goes TDY, stays TDY". I
hope
this letter helps to show others that that saying is wrong.



Thank you

Abrigon Gusiq wrote:

True about fraternization, just how it goes, and it can be fun to watch
in a sad way. Intelligent men, suddenly become morons cause of a women..
Or the reverse..

Mike


Yes, isn't it puzzling...a man can bleed copious quantities of
blood and retain his intelligence but let a small amount shift
it's position in his body and all of his brains seems to turn to
mush
--

-Gord.