#1 Jet of World War II

Subject: #1 Jet of World War II
From: "Sunny"
Date: 7/18/03 6:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


"Corey C. Jordan" wrote in message
snip
They seem to forget that it would take huge formations of Mosquitos to put
enough bombs on a target to match that delivered by the heavies.
individual
Mossies could evade detection, evan small groups could be hard to locate.
But, hundreds of them would be easy to detect early in their flight. That
meant
the Luftwaffe would be waiting high above them in strength. Without any
defensive or offensive guns whatsoever, the Mosquitos would be scattered
and
very much chewed to pieces.

Just as an aside, the Mossie could actually carry a bigger bomb load than
the B17. :-)




But not very far and not very fast.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In article , Corey C. Jordan
writes
Inasmuch as acceleration correlates closely with climb, I don't think
that the Mossie could out-accelerate any single engine Luftwaffe fighter
of the time.

It doesn't have to be able to out accelerate the fighter, just
accelerate enough to reduce the closing speed for long enough. Somewhere
(not here) I have a copy of the RAF test report on the 'fighting'
abilities of the Mossie, it mentioned good acceleration, have to dig it
out.

As it was, most models were not especially fast when compared to the day
fighters of the time.

Reports I've read suggested that Mossies from the first raids flew home
followed by numerous FW190s, none of which managed to close enough to
get a shot in.

--
John

In article ,
"Sunny" wrote:

"Corey C. Jordan" wrote in message
snip
They seem to forget that it would take huge formations of Mosquitos to put
enough bombs on a target to match that delivered by the heavies.
individual
Mossies could evade detection, evan small groups could be hard to locate.
But, hundreds of them would be easy to detect early in their flight. That
meant
the Luftwaffe would be waiting high above them in strength. Without any
defensive or offensive guns whatsoever, the Mosquitos would be scattered
and
very much chewed to pieces.

Just as an aside, the Mossie could actually carry a bigger bomb load than
the B17. :-)

But how far?

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 01:52:50 GMT, "Sunny" wrote:

Just as an aside, the Mossie could actually carry a bigger bomb load than
the B17. :-)



Indeed, it certainly could over the longer ranges required to reach Germany.
However, for missions into eastern France, the B-17 could and was rigged
with under-wing racks and would drag as much as 12,000 lbs to the target.

Oh yeah, the B-24 was actually the more numerous of the two and it had
a considerably greater load capability (B-17s were limited by the size of the
bomb bay, a throwback to the middle 1930s when loads of 2,000 lbs
were considered adequate).

B-17s would haul five 1,000 lbs bombs or eight 500 lb bombs on a typical
mission over Germany. As an interesting comparison, Charles Lindbergh
demonstrated to the Marines that they could lift three and even four 1,000 lb
bombs with their F4U-1As.

My regards,

Widewing
Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com

As it was, most models were not especially fast when compared to the day
fighters of the time.

Still, they were the fastest bombers of the day, and the speed they possessed
was more than adequate to outstrip all but their most determined pursuers.

Reports I've read suggested that Mossies from the first raids flew home
followed by numerous FW190s, none of which managed to close enough to
get a shot in.

That's true. I also have a few anecdotes from LW pilots and upper echelon
types that make it clear that the Mosquito was practically untouchable. No
other aircraft in the Allied arsenal caused nearly as much consternation among
the Nazi leadership - a quick scan through Goebbels' diaries shows that he
mentions Mosquitos by name in every single daily entry for the last two months
of his life. No other type of a/c is even mentioned by name, not even once.
Mosquitos. Verdammt Mosquitos. Even a success over a single Mosquito was
worthy of mention. "Moskitoschriek" (Mosquito Panic) was actually a term
among German nightfighter men that was used during the last months of the war
to describe the physical condition caused by extended periods of sleep
deprivation and knawing dread due to too many nights on operations, facing
their nemesis, the RAF intruder and nightfighter Mosquitos. I have plenty of
examples of this phrase being used, by NJG airmen as well as Galland, Göring,
and Willi Messerschmitt. My evaluation of the Mosquito matches Galland's and
Göring's opinion - that the Mosquito was the only air threat that conventional
forces were simply never able to overcome.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

Consider that the Bf-109G-10 could maintain a climb rate of nearly double
that
of a Mosquito, you can be absolutely certain that the Mosquito would get
chased
down very quickly should one bleed off its speed.

True of any bomber, then or now.
Mossies needed to stay high
and fly at fast cruise speeds to avoid interception.

418 Squadron, among several others making life hell for the German
nightfighters, proved that they could operate nearly untouched over the
continent, and usually at very low altitude.

Getting the Mosquito slow
was to get it dead.

Again, true.

I still shake my head in amazement when I hear the advocates of the Mossie as
a strategic bomber blubber on about how the Mosquito could have replaced
the American heavy bombers because they were fast enough to avoid
interception. Utter rubbish.

I doubt that anyone could carry that argument very far, regardless of how much
the Mosquito fans would like. Hell, I love the a/c, but it was never capable
of area bombing. In that regard, it was clearly incapable of replacing the
B-17, Lancs or any other type of "viermot" (generic term "four motor" used to
describe heavy bombers).


They seem to forget that it would take huge formations of Mosquitos to put
enough bombs on a target to match that delivered by the heavies.

But, unlike the heavies, the Mosquito could and did flatten pin-point strategic
targets with apparent ease, without sacrificing the entire neighborhood.

individual
Mossies could evade detection, evan small groups could be hard to locate.
But, hundreds of them would be easy to detect early in their flight.

That is a GOOD thing, in fact the RAF depended on it. When spoof raids reached
their final incarnation, they featured window-dropping Mosquitos, "Grand Tour"
Mosquitos, Pathfinders, etc., including dedicated nightfighters - in short,
they represented a threat that the Germans had no choice but to react. The
result? German nightfighters responding to the "Mosquito raids" often found
themselves facing few if any bombers, and too many Mossie nightfighters for
them to handle.

As for early detection of Mosquitos, remember the time frame - by 1944,
jamming, intrusion and interference of several types were making it nearly
impossible for the GAF to paint an accurate picture of raids assembling over
England - the main reason they could react to heavy bombers was their bloody
slow speed in getting it together and transiting to their target. Mosquitos
didn't require a tight defensive formation and could have easily swamped German
defenses by doing it all 'their way' - go over at "Mosquito height" (30K) and
approach the target from several directions.

That meant
the Luftwaffe would be waiting high above them in strength.

That was tried, with limited success. 10./JG 300 among several other units
tasked with exactly this duty. They had greater success than more normal
squadrons, but it was little more than a drop in the bucket.

Without any
defensive or offensive guns whatsoever, the Mosquitos would be scattered and
very much chewed to pieces.

Why wouldn't this force operate at night and in company with FB or NF
Mosquitos? The only time a force of Mosquitos was hit hard enough to justify
this assertion was during Operation Clarion, when essentially every strong
point of this aircraft was ignored and it was sent over the continent in
droves, in daylight, against fully alerted defenses - along with over 7,000
other Allied a/c. Not surprisingly, their loss rate for that date was quite
costly - on the order of 1/5th of the other Allied participants.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

Let's do some numbers. The B--17 carried a 5,000 lb. bomb load on most of
its
mssions. The B-26 carried a 4,000 bomb load on most of its mssions.

So did most of the Mosquitos striking Berlin in late 44-45. They called it a
"cookie" - the Germans called it a "vaccuum bomb", due to the concussion
effects.
But a max effort of B-17's was about 22 planes. A max effort of B-26's was 56
planes. The B-17's would drop 110,000 lbs on the target, the B-26's would
dump
224,000 lbs on the target and did so it from a much lower altitude and with
far greater accuracy. Now you figure what plane can replace the B-17 best.
And
it sure as hell wasn't the Mosquito.

Art, no offense, but the B-26 could not strike Berlin with a 4,000 # bombload,
from any altitude, from England. The Mosquito and B-17 both could. At the
lower altitude that made the B-26 so accurate, it would have been slaughtered
by the flak and fighters over Berlin. The fact that the B-26 was used on
relatively short range missions, usually in areas where the US held near-total
air supremacy, speaks volumes. The Mosquito and B-17 went hundreds of miles
into the heart of the Nazi defenses at a time when no one in their right mind
would think of sending a force of Marauders after the same target.

I think this is getting silly - all three of these aircraft, and dozens of
other types, cooperated to help overwhelm the LW. There is no need to belittle
one excellent aircraft to bolster the reputation of another excellent aircraft!

v/r
Gordon

On 19 Jul 2003 05:29:09 GMT, nt (Gordon) wrote:

that the Mosquito was the only air threat that conventional
forces were simply never able to overcome.

One wonders about the potential of the Douglas Mixmaster for the very same
reasons.


greg

--
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Alley Gator. With those hypnotic big green eyes
Alley Gator. She'll make you 'fraid 'em
She'll chew you up, ain't no lie

"Sunny" wrote in message
...

"Corey C. Jordan" wrote in message
snip
They seem to forget that it would take huge formations of Mosquitos to
put
enough bombs on a target to match that delivered by the heavies.
individual
Mossies could evade detection, evan small groups could be hard to
locate.
But, hundreds of them would be easy to detect early in their flight.
That
meant
the Luftwaffe would be waiting high above them in strength. Without any
defensive or offensive guns whatsoever, the Mosquitos would be scattered
and
very much chewed to pieces.

Just as an aside, the Mossie could actually carry a bigger bomb load than
the B17. :-)


No it couldnt

a late model Mosquito with a bulged bay could carry a 4000 lb bomb load,
most Mosquito's carried 2000 lb bomb loads

The max load a B-17G could carry was 9,600 lbs with a more
normal load being 6000 lbs

Keith

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

snip


Just as an aside, the Mossie could actually carry a bigger bomb load
than
the B17. :-)


No it couldnt

a late model Mosquito with a bulged bay could carry a 4000 lb bomb load,
most Mosquito's carried 2000 lb bomb loads


Quite right.

The Mosquito was originally designed to carry 1000 lb (2 x 500 lb). It was
quickly found that by cropping the vanes of the 500 lb bomb, they could fit
four of these into the Mosquito's bomb bay, so this was the standard load of
the B. Mk IV. (Some development models could also carry a 500 lb bomb under
each wing, but these did not see service with the RAF.)

The B Mk IX and B Mk XVI were converted from 1943 onwards with the bulged
bomb bay doors which allowed them to carry one 4000 lb "Cookie" (basically a
big explosive-filled drum, with no vanes or fins).

The FB Mk VI could carry two of the cropped 500 lb bombs, as the forward
part of the bomb bay was taken up with the 20 mm cannon breeches and
ammunition feeds. They could also carry 4 rockets or one 500 lb bomb under
each wing. However, since the FB versions had no bomb aimer, they could bomb
only at low level. Rocket or cannons were the preferred weapons.


The max load a B-17G could carry was 9,600 lbs with a more
normal load being 6000 lbs

Keith