Sad Accident over Deland

("Ron Natalie" wrote)
Really? I can only think of this happenning one time bofore
when a meat bomb took out a cherokee.


Didn't a person "land" on a prop - maybe in Europe/Russia - last year?

Seem to recall that story.


Montblack

In article ,
"Montblack" wrote:


Didn't a person "land" on a prop - maybe in Europe/Russia - last year?

From memory:

A jumper landed close in front of a running jump plane, parachute went
into the prop. I think this has happened twice..one fatality, one
serious injury.

At least one jumper hitting jump plane during descent...both landed okay.

At an airshow a jumper hit the airplane they had exited....was a
biplane...at least one fatal.

A jumper in freefall hit a glider in England within the last few years,
2 fatal.

A jumper if freefall hit a Cherokee (?)..jumper injured, all in a/c
fatal.

There are about 3 millions jumps each year in the US...with a large
percentage of them done over/onto an airport. The jumper/aircraft
collision isn't a big problem numbers wise.

As far as the Deland thing, I can easily see how it could happen without
a gross error on anyones part.

The "upward" visibilty from the cockpit isn't great in most airplanes
with a cabin roof. A jump plane will probably be descending steeply,
especially a turbine powered airplane. A jumper descends even steeper
than the aircraft does. It's very possible the pilot couldn't see the
jumper, and if the jumper was going away from the airplane he wouldn't
be able to see it...and probably woudn't hear it either. The big
question for me is why they both ended up in the same airspace.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:55:44 -0400, Ron Natalie
wrote in : :

Larry Dighera wrote:


Of course, FARs* require pilots to obtain _ALL_ available information
before flight. Given today's pop-up Temporary Flight Restrictions, it
is even more important to check NOTAMs during the preflight briefing.
The FSS briefer or DUATS should have issued the NOTAM related to the
parachute activity. And if ATC is providing Radar Advisory Service,
the controller providing traffic advisories would have warned of the
hot drop zone.

If this is a regularly active drop zone, it gets published in the A/FD
and perhaps a parachute symbol on the chart, and there no longer is any
NOTAM for the briefer to report.

Here's the FAR:

Sec. 105.25 Parachute operations in designated airspace

(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in
command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be
conducted from that aircraft--
[...]
(3) Except as provided in paragraph (c) and (d) of this section,
within or into Class E or G airspace area unless the air traffic
control facility having jurisdiction over the airspace at the
first intended exit altitude is notified of the parachute
operation no earlier than 24 hours before or no later than 1 hour
before the parachute operation begins.
[...]
(c) For the purposes of paragraph (a)(3) of this section, air
traffic control facilities may accept a written notification from
an organization that conducts parachute operations and lists the
scheduled series of parachute operations to be conducted over a
stated period of time not longer than 12 calendar months. The
notification must contain the information prescribed by Sec.
105.15(a) of this part, identify the responsible persons
associated with that parachute operation, and be submitted at
least 15 days, but not more than 30 days, before the parachute
operation begins. The FAA may revoke the acceptance of the
notification for any failure of the organization conducting the
parachute operations to comply with its requirements.
[...]


They expect you to check the chart and A/FD as part of your preflight
planning.

Yes. That is required for every flight. ATC should still issue the
NOTAM as part of the preflight briefing.

ATC, workload permitting, is always a good thing to try, but not
foolproof.

True; ATC isn't required to alert pilots receiving Flight Following
services to an active drop zone, but in my experience, they seem to
make an effort to do so.

Of course, FARs* require pilots to obtain _ALL_ available information
before flight. Given today's pop-up Temporary Flight Restrictions,
it
is even more important to check NOTAMs during the preflight briefing.
The FSS briefer or DUATS should have issued the NOTAM related to the
parachute activity. And if ATC is providing Radar Advisory Service,
the controller providing traffic advisories would have warned of the
hot drop zone.

Well, the FSS flight briefer I spoke with was located somewhere in
Northern Georgia, where we had gotten gas. He never mentioned anything
about skydiving activity.

And we used VFR flight following all the way. ATC never mentioned
anything about skydiving, either.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

In your case, you weren't experienced enough to be comfortable with
it,
yet "it all worked out okay" because the jump pilot made sure it did.
It wasn't just coincidence.

I never said it was. Jump plane pilots are some of the hardest working
pilots I've ever met (along with tow-plane pilots), and I imagine that
the pilots flying out of Deland -- one of the largest jump schools in
the world -- are considered to be the "best of the best."

Which, of course, doesn't take away from the tragedy of the accident.
Everyone in an operation that size is "playing the odds" -- and on that
day they lost, plain and simple.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Dudley Henriques" dhenriques@noware .net wrote in message
link.net...
I remember like it was yesterday; standing at the Blues Com Trailer with
John Patton of the Blue Angels at the Reading Show in 74. Tony Less took
the
Diamond straight up for the Diamond Loop. Both Patton and I saw the
Cherokee
140 at the same time. John had a hot mike in his had and direct contact
with
Tony in Blue 1. The formation went right past the Cherokee before either
of
us could speak.
:
We checked. All the NOTAMS were intact.

http://www.flyontrack.co.uk/hntoi.asp

"Over the past three years the Red Arrows' protected airspace was infringed
on 14 occasions. This not only posed real danger to all the aircraft
involved but also, in some cases, denied thousands of members of the public
the chance to see the team perform. "

Paul

In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote:


True; ATC isn't required to alert pilots receiving Flight Following
services to an active drop zone, but in my experience, they seem to
make an effort to do so.

It seems to depend on the individual controller. I work with Approach
at my DZ, some of the controllers are very helpful calling traffic,
advising other traffic of where the DZ is while some simply acknowledge
when I sign on and that's the last I hear from them.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

Once its on the chart, and in the green book, its no longer on the
NOTAM. Its not the briefers job. Its the pilots. IF you flight follow
and are on approach's frequency, you WILL hear "One minute to jumpers"
and "Jumpers away" for the applicable areas. The jump plane is required
to notify the responsible approach/center for the area at those times.

I am acutely aware of several active and former dropzones near me. Two
are at private fields, and the other two are on public airports.

Dave

Jay Honeck wrote:
Of course, FARs* require pilots to obtain _ALL_ available information
before flight. Given today's pop-up Temporary Flight Restrictions,

it

is even more important to check NOTAMs during the preflight briefing.
The FSS briefer or DUATS should have issued the NOTAM related to the
parachute activity. And if ATC is providing Radar Advisory Service,
the controller providing traffic advisories would have warned of the
hot drop zone.


Well, the FSS flight briefer I spoke with was located somewhere in
Northern Georgia, where we had gotten gas. He never mentioned anything
about skydiving activity.

And we used VFR flight following all the way. ATC never mentioned
anything about skydiving, either.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Just because an operation is outside your comfort zone or experience
level Jay does not mean it's unsafe or reckless.

Hmmm, maybe true.
But I do not like to be cut-off in the pattern, being over taken, never
mind somebody close on my tail where I can not see them.
That makes me nervous.

A jump pilot has more experience than me, but he/she can take in
consideration that there are lesser pilots flying out there.
If a pilot becomes nervous then mistakes are going to happen.

This is about the same as people keeping their dogs(ie pit-bull
terriers, rottweilers etc) unleashed, it is safe to their opinion.
It makes other people nervous.

-Kees

On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:46:21 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
dhenriques@noware .net wrote:

snip

Even Notams don't work sometimes.

I remember like it was yesterday; standing at the Blues Com Trailer with
John Patton of the Blue Angels at the Reading Show in 74. Tony Less took the
Diamond straight up for the Diamond Loop. Both Patton and I saw the Cherokee
140 at the same time. John had a hot mike in his had and direct contact with
Tony in Blue 1. The formation went right past the Cherokee before either of
us could speak. We discovered in the post flight brief that none of the team
saw the Cherokee, and to this day, I honestly believe the pilot in the
Cherokee must have seen the team go by him. We judged he was close enough
that his pants were stained when he landed at where ever he was headed.
There are NOTAMS issued on the Blues performance times, and the field is
closed for traffic during demonstrations. We checked. All the NOTAMS were
intact. The times were correct. The guy in the Cherokee didn't read the
NOTAMS and wasn't advised either. He simply wandered in and flew right
through the restricted airspace unannounced and uninvited.
It happens!!!!

Now that is scary!
There is always at least one who never gets the notification.

Last spring we had a pancake breakfast. (OK, last spring or the one
before) and it was a pretty good turn out. Lots of planes.

They received a call up in the terminal building that such and such a
Cherokee pilot should call the tower over at MBS. Seems as the guy
went merrily chugging right through their airspace about a 1000 AGL
right in front of an airliner who had to take evasive action and go
around. To say they weren't happy would be an understatement.

Last Fall before the elections the President was going to be in
Saginaw. There was a TFR in place (centered on MBS) and well
advertised. We knew about it nearly a week ahead. Actually we were
just one mile outside the no fly zone so we could go straight out, or
straight back home while talking to ATC.

Pilot: Ahhhh... MBS Approach, I have a jet off my wing tip. What does
that mean? What's going on?
MBS: unintelligible
Pilot: Do you want me to land?
(The pres was due in about 15 minutes. No they did not want him to
land!)
I'll be contacted at harbor Beach? Who should I call?
(I doubt he had to call any one as the big blue State Police cars were
probably waiting for him)

Of course there was the time a year or so back an airliner flew right
through our down wind leg for 24 slightly below pattern altitude which
is 1000 AGL.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired
dhenriquestrashatearthlinktrashdotnet
(take out the trash :-)