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The end of the Naval Air Reserves???



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 3rd 03, 02:12 AM
John Larson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default The end of the Naval Air Reserves???

It will be a sad day when the all these squadrons are gone. It was fun
while it lasted. John Larson LCDR(Ret) VP-90 1984-1994, NAS Glenview
IL.

from July 7 Navy Times

Issue Date: July 07, 2003

Proposed cuts to Reserve aviation face opposition

By Christopher Munsey
Times staff writer

The Naval Reserve Association and members of Congress oppose the
planned decommissioning of a Naval Air Reserve F/A-18 Hornet strike
fighter squadron in the next fiscal year - and worry about even deeper
future cuts to Reserve aviation.
The cuts, reportedly being considered as Navy officials plan the
service's budget over the next five fiscal years, are significant,
said retired Navy Capt. Ike Puzon, association spokesman.

According to planning information the association obtained from Navy
sources, the Naval Air Reserve would lose its maritime patrol,
helicopter and strike fighter squadrons, Puzon said.

Only the Naval Air Reserve fleet logistics squadrons, plus Electronic
Attack Squadron 209, Carrier Airborne Early Warning Squadron 77 and
Fighter Squadrons Composite 12 and 13 would be spared.

The decommissioning schedule includes:

Fiscal 2004: VFA-203.

Fiscal 2005: Patrol Squadrons 64 and 92; VFA-201 and VFA-204; VAW-78;
Helicopter Antisubmarine Squadron 75; Helicopter Antisubmarine
Squadron Light 60; Helicopter Combat Support Squadron 85; and
Helicopter Combat Support Special Squadrons 4 and 5.

Fiscal 2006: VP-62 and VP-66.

Fiscal 2007: VP-65 and VP-69.

Fiscal 2008: VP-94.

Aside from quick savings, the planned cuts don't make sense, Puzon
said, given the nation's security needs.

As a reason for maintaining the current Reserve structure, Puzon cited
the deployments of VFA-201 and detachments from HCS 4 and HCS-5 for
Operation Iraqi Freedom. Mobilized in October, VFA-201 deployed with
Carrier Air Wing 8 aboard the aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt; its
aircraft conducted bombing missions over Iraq.

Eight HH-60H Seahawk helicopters and 180 people from HCS-4 and HCS-5,
trained in combat search-and-rescue and naval special warfare
operations, deployed to the eastern Mediterranean Sea and Persian Gulf
this spring.

Those deployments show that the Reserve's aircraft and personnel are a
valuable "insurance policy" for the Navy, said retired Rear Adm. Steve
Keith, the association's executive director.

"You need it; you never know when you're going to use it," Keith said.

Asked to comment on possible future cuts, Naval Reserve officials
would only say that funding is provided for two of the Reserve's three
strike fighter squadrons in the coming fiscal year, as part of the
Navy and Marine Corps tactical aviation integration plan.

"No decision has been made of which squadron will be decommissioned in
FY 2004, and it is premature to speculate about decisions regarding
force alignment for FY '05 and FY '06," said Vice Adm. John Totushek,
director of the Naval Reserve, in a prepared statement.

Senators and representatives are concerned about the cuts.

In a letter sent June 20 to the chairmen of the Senate and House Armed
Services committees, Sen. Zell Miller, D-Ga., asked for support for
language requiring the secretary of the Navy to submit two reports 90
days before any reductions to Reserve assets occur. The reports would
clarify the Navy's aviation force structure plan for the next five
fiscal years and explain plans for better integrating the Reserve into
active-component operations.
Ads
  #4  
Old July 4th 03, 02:09 AM
Michael Wise
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
"Giz" wrote:

"vzlion" wrote in message
...
On 2 Jul 2003 18:12:34 -0700, (John Larson)
wrote:

It will be a sad day when the all these squadrons are gone. It was fun
while it lasted. John Larson LCDR(Ret) VP-90 1984-1994, NAS Glenview
IL.


Big surprise. I thought Clinton was bad, Bush is even worse. He
already cut Veterans Benefits by millions of dollars while telling our
troops what a good job they are doing. Talk about 2-faced. At ther
rate he's going I won't be surprised
I've been a republican all my life, but I have to look at this
adminustration and ask "What has he done for the country?"

Walt
CPO, UNS, Ret.


He can't fix 8 years of abuse overnight.



How does slashing veterans benefits come anything close to approaching a
fix for what you call "8 years of abuse"? Face it, Bush Jr., like his
pappy, doesn't give two ****s about vets. He talks the armchair "Rah rah
military" talk from the safety and comfort of somebody from a family
wealthy and connected enough to ensure never being sent in harms
way...but at the end of the day, he's like the rest of those do-nothing
privileged stooges at the top and given the choice of protecting his the
already obscene profits of his lackey friends and contributors or
funding programs to benefit those who served their country and even shed
blood for it...will always side with his cronies.

Republican or Democrat, it makes no difference...servicemen are just
their pawns....although Republicans are pretty good about lying to deny
that.



--Mike
  #5  
Old July 4th 03, 02:31 AM
Giz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Michael Wise" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Giz" wrote:

"vzlion" wrote in message
...
On 2 Jul 2003 18:12:34 -0700, (John Larson)
wrote:

It will be a sad day when the all these squadrons are gone. It was

fun
while it lasted. John Larson LCDR(Ret) VP-90 1984-1994, NAS Glenview
IL.


Big surprise. I thought Clinton was bad, Bush is even worse. He
already cut Veterans Benefits by millions of dollars while telling our
troops what a good job they are doing. Talk about 2-faced. At ther
rate he's going I won't be surprised
I've been a republican all my life, but I have to look at this
adminustration and ask "What has he done for the country?"

Walt
CPO, UNS, Ret.


He can't fix 8 years of abuse overnight.



How does slashing veterans benefits come anything close to approaching a
fix for what you call "8 years of abuse"? Face it, Bush Jr., like his
pappy, doesn't give two ****s about vets. He talks the armchair "Rah rah
military" talk from the safety and comfort of somebody from a family
wealthy and connected enough to ensure never being sent in harms
way...but at the end of the day, he's like the rest of those do-nothing
privileged stooges at the top and given the choice of protecting his the
already obscene profits of his lackey friends and contributors or
funding programs to benefit those who served their country and even shed
blood for it...will always side with his cronies.

Republican or Democrat, it makes no difference...servicemen are just
their pawns....although Republicans are pretty good about lying to deny
that.



--Mike


Whatever, believe it or not there are issues that we are more interested in
than
on base housing, larger pay raises, ect. I'd like parts to keep my bird in
the air
and FMC. The issues you speak of don't mean **** if we don't come back.
I'm
certainly not overpaid, but at the same time I'm not on foodstamps or know
any
who are. I know that they are out there, but they would be on foodstamps in
the civilian world as well. I hope better things for their future, but
first I want
the best equipment in the world to do my job. Would you want to show up
with the second best system? The Dems never talk about these issues, since
ultimately it means that some defense contractor (not my favorite people
either)
is going to make a profit. We should streamline our procurement system
some,
but what we shouldn't do is stop buying. Just the thoughts of a Naval
Aircrewman
in a platform facing some Clinton era budget issues.

Giz


  #6  
Old July 4th 03, 02:54 AM
Michael Wise
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
"Giz" wrote:


It will be a sad day when the all these squadrons are gone. It was

fun
while it lasted. John Larson LCDR(Ret) VP-90 1984-1994, NAS Glenview
IL.


Big surprise. I thought Clinton was bad, Bush is even worse. He
already cut Veterans Benefits by millions of dollars while telling our
troops what a good job they are doing. Talk about 2-faced. At ther
rate he's going I won't be surprised
I've been a republican all my life, but I have to look at this
adminustration and ask "What has he done for the country?"

Walt
CPO, UNS, Ret.

He can't fix 8 years of abuse overnight.



How does slashing veterans benefits come anything close to approaching a
fix for what you call "8 years of abuse"? Face it, Bush Jr., like his
pappy, doesn't give two ****s about vets. He talks the armchair "Rah rah
military" talk from the safety and comfort of somebody from a family
wealthy and connected enough to ensure never being sent in harms
way...but at the end of the day, he's like the rest of those do-nothing
privileged stooges at the top and given the choice of protecting his the
already obscene profits of his lackey friends and contributors or
funding programs to benefit those who served their country and even shed
blood for it...will always side with his cronies.

Republican or Democrat, it makes no difference...servicemen are just
their pawns....although Republicans are pretty good about lying to deny
that.




Whatever, believe it or not there are issues that we are more interested in
than
on base housing, larger pay raises, ect.



These are active duty issues; not veterans ones.


Veterans are more interested in keeping benfits or benefit eligibility
for something like a service-connected disability (maybe taking a bullet
or their country or permanent disability from any number of combatant or
peacetime functions).


I'd like parts to keep my bird in
the air
and FMC. The issues you speak of don't mean **** if we don't come back.
I'm
certainly not overpaid, but at the same time I'm not on foodstamps or know
any
who are. I know that they are out there,



Great, but we're talking about veterans here. Do you undertand the
difference between active duty and veteran? Veterans have already done
there time. It is they who Bush Jr., like his pappy before him, are
slashing benefits for,



the civilian world as well. I hope better things for their future, but
first I want
the best equipment in the world to do my job.
Would you want to show up
with the second best system? The Dems never talk about these issues, since
ultimately it means that some defense contractor (not my favorite people
either)
is going to make a profit.


Yes, and while active duty (bless their souls) eke on by....the civilian
fat cat defense industry makes a killing so that their CEO friends of
our politicians can send their kids, who would never stoop to the level
of taking arms for their country, to the best private schools where they
can booze up womanize up, graduate, and get some position of power where
they can, in the future, send somebody else's lower middle class and
lower classs kids to do the fighting and dying. They'll say nice things
about these kids while they're doing it...but will turn around and slash
their benefits at the blink of an eye.



We should streamline our procurement system
some,
but what we shouldn't do is stop buying. Just the thoughts of a Naval
Aircrewman
in a platform facing some Clinton era budget issues.



Well this former Naval Aircrewman is facing up to both Bush's budget
issues....like the increasing of Voc Rehab disabled vet entitlement from
10% to 20% for eligibility and much much more.



--Mike
  #7  
Old July 4th 03, 03:19 AM
Bill Kambic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Michael Wise" wrote in message

How does slashing veterans benefits come anything close to approaching a
fix for what you call "8 years of abuse"? Face it, Bush Jr., like his
pappy, doesn't give two ****s about vets.


The "gutting" of the Naval Reserve goes all the way back to the Carter
years. I don't recall him as a friend of vets, either.

On the other hand the idea that two years as a draftee entitles you to a
lifetime of benefits is a bit much, too. I know a BUNCH of people who exist
on military disabilities with VERY questionable bases.

I did my time (10 years Active, 14 Reserve), got paid for what I did
(mostly), and will get a check every month beginning in April of 2006.
Since I live in an area where the closest thing we have to a "military
installation" is an ANG Base I won't get to use a lot of the "benefits" to
which I am entitled. I blame neither Republican nor Democrat for that; my
choice of residence is my choice.

My wife also gets her check, after 5 Active and 19 Reserve.

He talks the armchair "Rah rah
military" talk from the safety and comfort of somebody from a family
wealthy and connected enough to ensure never being sent in harms
way...but at the end of the day, he's like the rest of those do-nothing
privileged stooges at the top and given the choice of protecting his the
already obscene profits of his lackey friends and contributors or
funding programs to benefit those who served their country and even shed
blood for it...will always side with his cronies.


So, what else is new?!?!?!?!?! ;-)

Republican or Democrat, it makes no difference...servicemen are just
their pawns....although Republicans are pretty good about lying to deny
that.


I guess you are going to vote Libertarian next time out. Right?

Soldiers (and the rest) have been pawns since the beginning of the reality
of the "rich man's war and the poor man's fight." And that goes almost back
to the time of Og and Mog.

More to the point, loss of an internal Reserve hardware capability is
unlikely to EVER return. The RESFORONS have always been "poor relations"
but made do with what they had and sometimes embarassed Active Duty types in
head to head competition. The Active Duty types have, in my personal
presence, often noted the vast "wastage" of funds on the Reserve hardware
units. (To be completely fair, a fair number have also "looked behind the
curtain" and seen the reasons why hardware units are a Very Good Thing.)

The likelyhood of facing the hords of the Red Army (or the late, unlamented
Soviet Navy) is very small. But there are still places where you can lose a
bunch of aircraft and people in a hurry and have to replace them the same
way (a "dust up" in North Korea comes to mind). The complexity of modern
aircraft means that the "WWII Approach" of 90 day wonder to Fleet Fighter
Pilot in a year (or so) is unlikely to EVER be seen again. This means that
you have to have a "well" of trained people to draw on in time of crisis.
The REFORON/SRU hardware units filled that need. When they "go away" so
will a cheap solution to an expensive problem.

Bill Kambic

Formerly of VS-73 (the SRU part whose numbers escape me) and VP-93 (ditto),
NAF Detroit, 1974-1978


  #8  
Old July 4th 03, 02:42 PM
Giz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Michael Wise" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Giz" wrote:


It will be a sad day when the all these squadrons are gone. It

was
fun
while it lasted. John Larson LCDR(Ret) VP-90 1984-1994, NAS

Glenview
IL.


Big surprise. I thought Clinton was bad, Bush is even worse. He
already cut Veterans Benefits by millions of dollars while telling

our
troops what a good job they are doing. Talk about 2-faced. At ther
rate he's going I won't be surprised
I've been a republican all my life, but I have to look at this
adminustration and ask "What has he done for the country?"

Walt
CPO, UNS, Ret.

He can't fix 8 years of abuse overnight.


How does slashing veterans benefits come anything close to approaching

a
fix for what you call "8 years of abuse"? Face it, Bush Jr., like his
pappy, doesn't give two ****s about vets. He talks the armchair "Rah

rah
military" talk from the safety and comfort of somebody from a family
wealthy and connected enough to ensure never being sent in harms
way...but at the end of the day, he's like the rest of those

do-nothing
privileged stooges at the top and given the choice of protecting his

the
already obscene profits of his lackey friends and contributors or
funding programs to benefit those who served their country and even

shed
blood for it...will always side with his cronies.

Republican or Democrat, it makes no difference...servicemen are just
their pawns....although Republicans are pretty good about lying to

deny
that.




Whatever, believe it or not there are issues that we are more

interested in
than
on base housing, larger pay raises, ect.



These are active duty issues; not veterans ones.


Veterans are more interested in keeping benfits or benefit eligibility
for something like a service-connected disability (maybe taking a bullet
or their country or permanent disability from any number of combatant or
peacetime functions).


I'd like parts to keep my bird in
the air
and FMC. The issues you speak of don't mean **** if we don't come back.
I'm
certainly not overpaid, but at the same time I'm not on foodstamps or

know
any
who are. I know that they are out there,



Great, but we're talking about veterans here. Do you undertand the
difference between active duty and veteran? Veterans have already done
there time. It is they who Bush Jr., like his pappy before him, are
slashing benefits for,



You brought the veteran's issues into a thread that was discussing the
current and future state of Navy Air. Not exactly a "veteran's issue".
Thank you for your service and have a happy 4th, but if you can't
accept that this thread will follow along on the issues it is concerned
with, then find somewhere else to grind your axe or start a new thread.

Giz


  #9  
Old July 4th 03, 02:51 PM
Giz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Bill Kambic" wrote in message
...
"Michael Wise" wrote in message

How does slashing veterans benefits come anything close to approaching a
fix for what you call "8 years of abuse"? Face it, Bush Jr., like his
pappy, doesn't give two ****s about vets.


The "gutting" of the Naval Reserve goes all the way back to the Carter
years. I don't recall him as a friend of vets, either.

On the other hand the idea that two years as a draftee entitles you to a
lifetime of benefits is a bit much, too. I know a BUNCH of people who

exist
on military disabilities with VERY questionable bases.

I did my time (10 years Active, 14 Reserve), got paid for what I did
(mostly), and will get a check every month beginning in April of 2006.
Since I live in an area where the closest thing we have to a "military
installation" is an ANG Base I won't get to use a lot of the "benefits" to
which I am entitled. I blame neither Republican nor Democrat for that; my
choice of residence is my choice.

My wife also gets her check, after 5 Active and 19 Reserve.

He talks the armchair "Rah rah
military" talk from the safety and comfort of somebody from a family
wealthy and connected enough to ensure never being sent in harms
way...but at the end of the day, he's like the rest of those do-nothing
privileged stooges at the top and given the choice of protecting his the
already obscene profits of his lackey friends and contributors or
funding programs to benefit those who served their country and even shed
blood for it...will always side with his cronies.


So, what else is new?!?!?!?!?! ;-)

Republican or Democrat, it makes no difference...servicemen are just
their pawns....although Republicans are pretty good about lying to deny
that.


I guess you are going to vote Libertarian next time out. Right?

Soldiers (and the rest) have been pawns since the beginning of the reality
of the "rich man's war and the poor man's fight." And that goes almost

back
to the time of Og and Mog.

More to the point, loss of an internal Reserve hardware capability is
unlikely to EVER return. The RESFORONS have always been "poor relations"
but made do with what they had and sometimes embarassed Active Duty types

in
head to head competition. The Active Duty types have, in my personal
presence, often noted the vast "wastage" of funds on the Reserve hardware
units. (To be completely fair, a fair number have also "looked behind the
curtain" and seen the reasons why hardware units are a Very Good Thing.)

The likelyhood of facing the hords of the Red Army (or the late,

unlamented
Soviet Navy) is very small. But there are still places where you can lose

a
bunch of aircraft and people in a hurry and have to replace them the same
way (a "dust up" in North Korea comes to mind). The complexity of modern
aircraft means that the "WWII Approach" of 90 day wonder to Fleet Fighter
Pilot in a year (or so) is unlikely to EVER be seen again. This means

that
you have to have a "well" of trained people to draw on in time of crisis.
The REFORON/SRU hardware units filled that need. When they "go away" so
will a cheap solution to an expensive problem.

Bill Kambic

Formerly of VS-73 (the SRU part whose numbers escape me) and VP-93

(ditto),
NAF Detroit, 1974-1978

Hey Bill, are you an A-dub? I'm one of the active duty types that has seen
behind
the curtain. I left active duty after my first 4 and joined the reserves
(SAU VP0545),
but came back to active duty after 4.5 there. I don't view the reserves as
wasteful,
but I do view them as somewhat of a luxury. We shouldn't have reserve
squadrons
instead of active squadrons. A choice that the VP community would be facing
in the
near future if we didn't make use of the aircraft in the reserve units. I
do believe that
the SAU concept will be making a return to the Naval Air Reserve, and
hopefully we
can reform some of the units when MMA is online.

Giz


  #10  
Old July 4th 03, 03:56 PM
Michael Wise
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
"Giz" wrote:


It will be a sad day when the all these squadrons are gone. It

was
fun
while it lasted. John Larson LCDR(Ret) VP-90 1984-1994, NAS

Glenview
IL.


Big surprise. I thought Clinton was bad, Bush is even worse. He
already cut Veterans Benefits by millions of dollars while telling

our
troops what a good job they are doing. Talk about 2-faced. At ther
rate he's going I won't be surprised
I've been a republican all my life, but I have to look at this
adminustration and ask "What has he done for the country?"

Walt
CPO, UNS, Ret.

He can't fix 8 years of abuse overnight.


How does slashing veterans benefits come anything close to approaching

a
fix for what you call "8 years of abuse"? Face it, Bush Jr., like his
pappy, doesn't give two ****s about vets. He talks the armchair "Rah

rah
military" talk from the safety and comfort of somebody from a family
wealthy and connected enough to ensure never being sent in harms
way...but at the end of the day, he's like the rest of those

do-nothing
privileged stooges at the top and given the choice of protecting his

the
already obscene profits of his lackey friends and contributors or
funding programs to benefit those who served their country and even

shed
blood for it...will always side with his cronies.

Republican or Democrat, it makes no difference...servicemen are just
their pawns....although Republicans are pretty good about lying to

deny
that.




Whatever, believe it or not there are issues that we are more

interested in
than
on base housing, larger pay raises, ect.



These are active duty issues; not veterans ones.


Veterans are more interested in keeping benfits or benefit eligibility
for something like a service-connected disability (maybe taking a bullet
or their country or permanent disability from any number of combatant or
peacetime functions).


I'd like parts to keep my bird in
the air
and FMC. The issues you speak of don't mean **** if we don't come back.
I'm
certainly not overpaid, but at the same time I'm not on foodstamps or

know
any
who are. I know that they are out there,



Great, but we're talking about veterans here. Do you undertand the
difference between active duty and veteran? Veterans have already done
there time. It is they who Bush Jr., like his pappy before him, are
slashing benefits for,



You brought the veteran's issues into a thread that was discussing the
current and future state of Navy Air. Not exactly a "veteran's issue".
Thank you for your service and have a happy 4th, but if you can't
accept that this thread will follow along on the issues it is concerned
with, then find somewhere else to grind your axe or start a new thread.



False, Walt brought veterans issues into the thread and I responded to
that. Thank you for your service as well, but if you're reading
comprehension skills are that off, perhaps you should avoid
participating in any thread.


--Mike
 




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