A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Piloting
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Dumb Reg question



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old May 1st 05, 04:38 AM
RST Engineering
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

That is ABSOLUTELY false. Did you really READ 61.51(e) or did you simply
parrot somebody that you didn't check for accuracy?

61.51 lists a whole LOT of folks that can log PIC time. Your scenario isn't
among them. Suggest that you READ rather than QUOTE.


Jim



FAR 61.51(e) describes who can log PIC time. In the case of a
simulated instrument flight, both the pilot under-the-hood (sole
manipulator of the controls) and the safety pilot (required crewmember
on a flight requiring more than one pilot, such as a simulated
instrument flight) can log PIC at the same time.

Charles.
-N8385U



  #22  
Old May 1st 05, 05:00 AM
RST Engineering
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:Z4Oce.113$fI.16@fed1read05...

No Dumb Questions.. just hard to interpret Regs..


Nothing difficult at all. You simply need to READ them.


You are qualified for Airplane Single Engine Land... a Tomahawk is an
Airplane Single Engine Land..


And unless the Traumahawk is covered by one of the six execeptions of the
regulations, you are good to go. HOWEVER, it is clever to prove to yourself
that you don't fall into one of the exceptions.



any time you have hands on stick.. that is PIC..


That is absolutely not true. If I ask my kid to hold onto the wheel while I
find the extra batteries, that does NOT make her the PIC. PIC is not only a
state of mind, it is a legal definition. If you are a certificated pilot
and I ask you to fly along with me as the PIC, I can ask you to fly the
airplane from Sacramento to Salt Lake while I sleep and I am still the PIC.
No matter that you flew the whole route, I am the PIC and am responsible for
the flight. When the fit hits the shan, the determination will be made as
to who was the PIC. It is NOT necessarily the person with their hands on
the controls.



If you are under the hood and have a rated pilot acting as a safety pilot,
then all you need is his name..


I'm sure my CFI-I Betty wouldn't appreciate that comment.


any time you are flying with hands on stick, with or without the hood, you
are PIC,


Absolutely not true, as noted above.



any time you are under the hood, he may log PIC (acting pic) even
though he may never touch the stick.


Absolutely not true.


Jim


  #23  
Old May 1st 05, 05:14 AM
BTIZ
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

FAR61.51(e) Logging of Pilot in Command Time
61.51(e)(1)(ii) except for recreational pilot, who is ACTING as PIC of an
aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certificate
of the aircraft OR THE REGULATIONS UNDER WHICH THE FLIGHT IS CONDUCTED.

with the scenario given... pilot one is under the hood, manipulating the
controls and logs PIC under 61.51(e)(1)(i).. sole manipulator

91.109(b) requires an appropriately rated safety pilot.... the regulation
under which the flight is conducted... therefore the flight requires two
pilots. and pilot two is ACTING PIC under 61.51(e)(1)(ii)...

My remarks : The agreement of ACTING PIC and ACTUAL PIC should be made in
advance between the two pilots... that such time that Pilot 1 is under the
hood, then Pilot 2 is ACTING PIC and makes decisions for safety.. from
ground.. from other traffic.. and any ATC requirements as required such as
reporting visual checkpoints or remaining clear of certain airspace.

BT

"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...
That is ABSOLUTELY false. Did you really READ 61.51(e) or did you simply
parrot somebody that you didn't check for accuracy?

61.51 lists a whole LOT of folks that can log PIC time. Your scenario
isn't among them. Suggest that you READ rather than QUOTE.
Jim

FAR 61.51(e) describes who can log PIC time. In the case of a
simulated instrument flight, both the pilot under-the-hood (sole
manipulator of the controls) and the safety pilot (required crewmember
on a flight requiring more than one pilot, such as a simulated
instrument flight) can log PIC at the same time.

Charles.
-N8385U





  #24  
Old May 1st 05, 05:18 AM
BTIZ
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

except for the fact that you referenced it wrong..

61.31(g) Additional training required for operating PRESSURIZED AIRCRAFT
capable of operating at high altitudes..

It is not a "high altitude" endorsement.. it is a Pressurized Aircraft
endorsement

BT

"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...
What the hell is wrong with the reg that I referenced in my original post?

Jim
\


New one on me. If the airplane is capable of high altitude, you need an
endorsement even if you only ground-hop it? Got a reg # I could look up?





  #25  
Old May 1st 05, 05:24 AM
BTIZ
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

point of fact.. a few of the aircraft I fly .. or have flown in the past..
are capable of flight above 25,000ft.. and they are not pressurized... so a
"pressurized aircraft" endorsement is not required...

and there is no endorsement required for flying unpressurized above FL250..

and before you get your shorts in a twist.. I have altitude chamber
training, and I have pressure breathing equipment and training

BT

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:NIYce.387$fI.10@fed1read05...
FAR61.51(e) Logging of Pilot in Command Time
61.51(e)(1)(ii) except for recreational pilot, who is ACTING as PIC of an
aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type
certificate of the aircraft OR THE REGULATIONS UNDER WHICH THE FLIGHT IS
CONDUCTED.

with the scenario given... pilot one is under the hood, manipulating the
controls and logs PIC under 61.51(e)(1)(i).. sole manipulator

91.109(b) requires an appropriately rated safety pilot.... the regulation
under which the flight is conducted... therefore the flight requires two
pilots. and pilot two is ACTING PIC under 61.51(e)(1)(ii)...

My remarks : The agreement of ACTING PIC and ACTUAL PIC should be made in
advance between the two pilots... that such time that Pilot 1 is under the
hood, then Pilot 2 is ACTING PIC and makes decisions for safety.. from
ground.. from other traffic.. and any ATC requirements as required such as
reporting visual checkpoints or remaining clear of certain airspace.

BT

"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...
That is ABSOLUTELY false. Did you really READ 61.51(e) or did you simply
parrot somebody that you didn't check for accuracy?

61.51 lists a whole LOT of folks that can log PIC time. Your scenario
isn't among them. Suggest that you READ rather than QUOTE.
Jim

FAR 61.51(e) describes who can log PIC time. In the case of a
simulated instrument flight, both the pilot under-the-hood (sole
manipulator of the controls) and the safety pilot (required crewmember
on a flight requiring more than one pilot, such as a simulated
instrument flight) can log PIC at the same time.

Charles.
-N8385U







  #26  
Old May 1st 05, 05:30 AM
Dave S
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

If you are able to be a PIC in a Airplane Single Engine Land, then you
can fly a Tomahawk and be/log PIC. If you are "current" then you can
carry passengers. The FAA does not have restrictions on being trained in
one plane, then flying another. I'm sure if you bent or broke the plane,
they could say you were careless and reckless, but they don't explicitly
require a checkout in every type you are gonna fly.

Wether the INSURANCE company will cover you (without having any
instruction in type) is another matter. Most every place that I have
flown at (rented from..) requires a checkout in every major type of
plane they have for you to rent planes in those types...

For instance.. the high wing Cessna's... I could check out in their
Arrow and fly all their cherokee airframes..

I could likewise check out in the 182 and fly all their cessna's.

(the above two examples assume you have your one-time complex and High
Performance endorsements)

Dave

Slick wrote:

I've only ever flown Cessna products and I've come across an area I'm not
sure about. I have my private and I have flow 150/2 and 172's since I
starting my training. Now I might partner up with a guy in a Tomahawk next
weekend for a tour across the state. I don't have any formal training in any
Piper products, will I be allowed to log any stick time? I don't recall
exactly how the regs layout type certification. Do I have to be signed off
and have logged instruction to be PIC in the Tomahawk? Also if I only had
time in a 150, would I have to have instruction in a 152 before I could log
PIC?

One last question, If I fly simulated instrument with a safety pilot, does
the safety pilot have to sign my logbook? Thanks to everyone for your help
and response.



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----


  #27  
Old May 1st 05, 05:32 AM
BTIZ
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:Z4Oce.113$fI.16@fed1read05...

No Dumb Questions.. just hard to interpret Regs..


Nothing difficult at all. You simply need to READ them.


Maybe you should read them...



You are qualified for Airplane Single Engine Land... a Tomahawk is an
Airplane Single Engine Land..


And unless the Traumahawk is covered by one of the six execeptions of the
regulations, you are good to go. HOWEVER, it is clever to prove to
yourself that you don't fall into one of the exceptions.


I guess you don't know what a Tomahawk is but what 6 exceptions do you refer
to?


any time you have hands on stick.. that is PIC..


That is absolutely not true. If I ask my kid to hold onto the wheel while
I find the extra batteries, that does NOT make her the PIC. PIC is not
only a state of mind, it is a legal definition. If you are a certificated
pilot and I ask you to fly along with me as the PIC, I can ask you to fly
the airplane from Sacramento to Salt Lake while I sleep and I am still the
PIC. No matter that you flew the whole route, I am the PIC and am
responsible for the flight. When the fit hits the shan, the determination
will be made as to who was the PIC. It is NOT necessarily the person with
their hands on the controls.


please re read 61.51(e)(1)(i).. sole manipulator in an aircraft that he is
rated in.. may log PIC.. even if you think he is not ACTING PIC.. because
you, the PIC, is sleeping and think you are in charge.




If you are under the hood and have a rated pilot acting as a safety
pilot, then all you need is his name..


I'm sure my CFI-I Betty wouldn't appreciate that comment.

generic "his",, get real..


any time you are flying with hands on stick, with or without the hood,
you are PIC,


Absolutely not true, as noted above.


re read 61.51(e)(1)(i) as noted above...



any time you are under the hood, he may log PIC (acting pic) even
though he may never touch the stick.


Absolutely not true.

re read 61.51(e)(1)(ii) as reported in another post...

Jim


BT


  #28  
Old May 1st 05, 05:34 AM
RST Engineering
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Nope. Read the section on Second In Command again.


BZZZT.


Jim


91.109(b) requires an appropriately rated safety pilot.... the regulation
under which the flight is conducted... therefore the flight requires two
pilots. and pilot two is ACTING PIC under 61.51(e)(1)(ii)...



  #29  
Old May 1st 05, 05:35 AM
RST Engineering
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Sonny, I was altitude rated while you were still in liquid form.

Jim


and before you get your shorts in a twist.. I have altitude chamber
training, and I have pressure breathing equipment and training



  #30  
Old May 1st 05, 05:36 AM
Dave S
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



BTIZ wrote:


If you are under the hood and have a rated pilot acting as a safety pilot,
then all you need is his name..
any time you are flying with hands on stick, with or without the hood, you
are PIC, any time you are under the hood, he may log PIC (acting pic) even
though he may never touch the stick.

BT


This is a NIT-pick but its an IMPORTANT one..

The Safety pilot is considered a required crew-member and under that
role is considered Second In Command or SIC. So he can log it as SIC.

If the pilot-flying (hood pilot) AND the Safety Pilot BOTH agree that
the Safety Pilot "IS" the "Pilot in Command" for the period the
pilot-flying is under the hood, THEN the safety pilot can log it as PIC.
You need to agree beforehand. This is usually not of consequence UNTIL
or UNLESS something goes wrong: you break or bend something, the plane
busts airspace, a near-midair occurs and is reported.. etc..

That can expose the Safety Pilot to accountability as the PIC.

Reality is.. the hood pilot and the safety pilot both log and claim
PIC.. just understand what the implications are when you do it.

Dave

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Good morning or good evening depending upon your location. I want to ask you the most important question of your life. Your joy or sorrow for all eternity depends upon your answer. The question is: Are you saved? It is not a question of how good Excelsior Home Built 0 April 22nd 05 01:11 AM
Dumb Transponder Question! John P Owning 2 March 30th 04 01:26 AM
Question about Question 4488 [email protected] Instrument Flight Rules 3 October 27th 03 02:26 AM
Dumb Canard Question. Russell Kent Home Built 39 October 19th 03 03:25 PM
Special Flight Setup Question (COF) Dudley Henriques Simulators 4 October 11th 03 12:14 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.