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Mini-Winch for FES



 
 
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  #11  
Old March 4th 20, 07:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Walsh[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 52
Default Mini-Winch for FES

At 17:06 04 March 2020, wrote:
On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 12:38:57 AM UTC-5, Paul

Remde wrote:
Hi,
=20
This is just a thought... =20
=20
I=E2=80=99ve recently been extremely interested in

the FES (Front
Electri=
c Sustainer) sailplanes. They are becoming quite popular.

Even very
high-=
performance racing sailplanes like the Ventus 3 are being

sold with FES
sys=
tems installed.
=20
I am the U.S. dealer for DG/LS and they offer the LS8e

neo with FES and
t=
he new DG-1001e neo with FES prototype will fly very

soon. It will be the
=
first 2-seat sailplane with FES. I would love to trade my

DG-1000S in for
=
a DG-1001e neo with FES, but so far my DG-1000S co-

owners aren't ready for
=
that upgrade.
=20
I'm not very experienced with winches and certainly not

an expert on
such=
matters, but I think there may be a nice market for a very

small electric
=
winch designed to get an FES-equipped sailplane just up to

100 feet =E2=80=
=93 high enough to use the FES to climb to the first

thermal. Even
self-la=
unch capable FES sailplanes would benefit from a small

winch because they
w=
ould save much more of the sailplane's battery for use later

in the flight
=
- since the initial takeoff roll requires a lot of power.
=20
You can see an interesting video showing an FES-

equipped sailplane
taking=
an autotow to about 100 feet he=20
https://youtu.be/pTeNKM2cXQk=20
=20
I would think that an electric winch could get a glider to

100 feet
quite=
easily and be quite small and relatively inexpensive. The

rope needed
wou=
ld be much less, and the drum could be much smaller

=E2=80=93 I imagine.
=20
A "level ground bungee launch" to 100 feet would be

another interesting
o=
ption. But I would think that would have risks from by the

bungee
snapping=
or coming loose and hurting someone.=20
=20
Any thoughts...? I'm just dreaming about the future of

gliding...
=20
Best Regards,
=20
Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.


Stupid question: since FES (Front Electric Sustainer)

sailplanes have a
pro=
peller in the front, with very little ground clearance, how

would you
attac=
h a tow rope without interfering with the propeller?

Perhaps you mean a
wi=
nch launch with the propeller stowed, turning on the FES

after releasing
fr=
om the rope. Seems like doing that at 100 feet is not a

great idea, even
t=
hough FES startup is a lot simpler and quicker than with

other sailplane
mo=
tor arrangements. So at the least you'd want to go to 300

feet or so -
hig=
h enough to try and start the FES, and land safely if that

does not work.

And as Herb said, for a good acceleration at the start,

you'd still need a
=
lot of power (at least 100 KW), nothing "mini" about that.

Yeah I'd like to hear more about (full-size) electric winches

in
developmen=
t. With the progress being made on electric cars (and

trucks) and their
ba=
tteries that seems like the future of winches.


Really? You think "progress being made on electric cars and
their batteries"? Sure there are a lot of them out there but
the battery technology they use has been around for years.
Lots of fancy batteries in development labs and in
Universities but none in any commercially available vehicle.


  #12  
Old March 4th 20, 08:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
ian
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default Mini-Winch for FES

On 3/4/20 7:38 AM, Paul Remde wrote:

Any thoughts...? I'm just dreaming about the future of gliding...


Speaking as a winch instructor. One requirement for a safe winch launch
is for the glider to always be in a position to make a safe landing in
the event of a launch failure. Thus the launch profile must be such that
by the time that you are too high to land straight ahead you have
sufficient height to fly a small circuit and land back on the runway.
You also want some overlap between the two options to take the stress
out of decision making. If you winching into zero or low winds, a 180
deg turn and landing "downwind" is also an option.

If you are winch launching a sustainer, the requirement must be for the
glider to launch, release, attempt an engine start and then still be in
a position to make a safe landing if the engine fails.

What you do not want, is to make a habit of releasing over the downwind
threshold, to low to fly a circuit back over the runway. (Yes this is
accepted for aerotow. But the launch failure rate is much lower and
simulated launch failure training is done in light winds which allow
landing downwind.)

One option is a conventional ground launch, car or winch to say 1000'
AGL. Glider can then fly a circuit, start the engine on downwind and be
in a position to land if the engine does not start. This would work for
any sustainer technology. The ground launch is an "existing art" and you
can get training and ratings for it. There are also established clubs
with the means to provide the launch.

Next option is the "launch to 100'". This must be done such that you can
release, attempt an engine start and still be able to land straight
ahead if it fails. A variation involves deploying and even starting the
engine before launch, with a pylon mounted engine, like a jet, but not
possible with FES. This saves some time for the engine start and reduces
the risk of a start failure. These launches have been done, but you wont
easily find an "approved procedure" accepted by manufacturers and
authorities etc.

Last comment, is do not assume that FES cannot suffer a launch failure.
They have safety control systems and all it would take is one contact
breaker "trip" to spoil your day. Also remember that any battery energy
you use to get from 100' to "start of soaring" will not be available for
a retrieve later in the day.

But yes, this could be the future of gliding ...

Ian
  #13  
Old March 4th 20, 08:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
AS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 653
Default Mini-Winch for FES

On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 10:40:53 AM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
Agree with other posters, not sure how much you'd save in terms of
money/effort/time with a mini winch vs a regular one.

Speaking of that, what ever happened to the great electric winch project
up at Bend OR that set the internet on fire not so long ago?


There was a paper given at the last SSA convention by Bill Daniels about his electric winch development - at least it was on the roster. I couldn't make it to the convention; does anyone know if this talk was recorded and will be made available?
Uli
'AS'
  #14  
Old March 4th 20, 08:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,601
Default Mini-Winch for FES

How about taking the running gear from a salvaged Tesla or similar? A
quick look found several in the $10K range and I'm sure you could find
something for less.Â* Also, simple research (looking at one website) says
that the Tesla's battery provides around 400 VDC which is fed to an
inverter to provide the AC voltage to run the motor(s).Â* Surely someone
could put together a battery bank (assuming the car's batteries are not
functional) or even have a 480 V 3-phase service installed to run the
motors.

Now, we just need someone to build the hardware to connect the motor(s)
to the drum.

Or buy a ready-made winch.

On 3/4/2020 12:21 PM, ian wrote:
On 3/4/20 7:38 AM, Paul Remde wrote:

Any thoughts...?Â* I'm just dreaming about the future of gliding...


Speaking as a winch instructor. One requirement for a safe winch
launch is for the glider to always be in a position to make a safe
landing in the event of a launch failure. Thus the launch profile must
be such that by the time that you are too high to land straight ahead
you have sufficient height to fly a small circuit and land back on the
runway. You also want some overlap between the two options to take the
stress out of decision making. If you winching into zero or low winds,
a 180 deg turn and landing "downwind" is also an option.

If you are winch launching a sustainer, the requirement must be for
the glider to launch, release, attempt an engine start and then still
be in a position to make a safe landing if the engine fails.

What you do not want, is to make a habit of releasing over the
downwind threshold, to low to fly a circuit back over the runway. (Yes
this is accepted for aerotow. But the launch failure rate is much
lower and simulated launch failure training is done in light winds
which allow landing downwind.)

One option is a conventional ground launch, car or winch to say 1000'
AGL. Glider can then fly a circuit, start the engine on downwind and
be in a position to land if the engine does not start. This would work
for any sustainer technology. The ground launch is an "existing art"
and you can get training and ratings for it. There are also
established clubs with the means to provide the launch.

Next option is the "launch to 100'". This must be done such that you
can release, attempt an engine start and still be able to land
straight ahead if it fails. A variation involves deploying and even
starting the engine before launch, with a pylon mounted engine, like a
jet, but not possible with FES. This saves some time for the engine
start and reduces the risk of a start failure. These launches have
been done, but you wont easily find an "approved procedure" accepted
by manufacturers and authorities etc.

Last comment, is do not assume that FES cannot suffer a launch
failure. They have safety control systems and all it would take is one
contact breaker "trip" to spoil your day. Also remember that any
battery energy you use to get from 100' to "start of soaring" will not
be available for a retrieve later in the day.

But yes, this could be the future of gliding ...

Ian


--
Dan, 5J
  #15  
Old March 4th 20, 09:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,124
Default Mini-Winch for FES

On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 2:39:29 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
How about taking the running gear from a salvaged Tesla or similar? A
quick look found several in the $10K range and I'm sure you could find
something for less.Â* Also, simple research (looking at one website) says
that the Tesla's battery provides around 400 VDC which is fed to an
inverter to provide the AC voltage to run the motor(s).Â* Surely someone
could put together a battery bank (assuming the car's batteries are not
functional) or even have a 480 V 3-phase service installed to run the
motors.

Now, we just need someone to build the hardware to connect the motor(s)
to the drum.

Or buy a ready-made winch.

On 3/4/2020 12:21 PM, ian wrote:
On 3/4/20 7:38 AM, Paul Remde wrote:

Any thoughts...?Â* I'm just dreaming about the future of gliding....


Speaking as a winch instructor. One requirement for a safe winch
launch is for the glider to always be in a position to make a safe
landing in the event of a launch failure. Thus the launch profile must
be such that by the time that you are too high to land straight ahead
you have sufficient height to fly a small circuit and land back on the
runway. You also want some overlap between the two options to take the
stress out of decision making. If you winching into zero or low winds,
a 180 deg turn and landing "downwind" is also an option.

If you are winch launching a sustainer, the requirement must be for
the glider to launch, release, attempt an engine start and then still
be in a position to make a safe landing if the engine fails.

What you do not want, is to make a habit of releasing over the
downwind threshold, to low to fly a circuit back over the runway. (Yes
this is accepted for aerotow. But the launch failure rate is much
lower and simulated launch failure training is done in light winds
which allow landing downwind.)

One option is a conventional ground launch, car or winch to say 1000'
AGL. Glider can then fly a circuit, start the engine on downwind and
be in a position to land if the engine does not start. This would work
for any sustainer technology. The ground launch is an "existing art"
and you can get training and ratings for it. There are also
established clubs with the means to provide the launch.

Next option is the "launch to 100'". This must be done such that you
can release, attempt an engine start and still be able to land
straight ahead if it fails. A variation involves deploying and even
starting the engine before launch, with a pylon mounted engine, like a
jet, but not possible with FES. This saves some time for the engine
start and reduces the risk of a start failure. These launches have
been done, but you wont easily find an "approved procedure" accepted
by manufacturers and authorities etc.

Last comment, is do not assume that FES cannot suffer a launch
failure. They have safety control systems and all it would take is one
contact breaker "trip" to spoil your day. Also remember that any
battery energy you use to get from 100' to "start of soaring" will not
be available for a retrieve later in the day.

But yes, this could be the future of gliding ...

Ian


--
Dan, 5J


How hard could it be?
Sigh
UH
  #16  
Old March 4th 20, 11:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 699
Default Mini-Winch for FES

On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 18:46:18 +0000, Dave Walsh wrote:

Really? You think "progress being made on electric cars and their
batteries"? Sure there are a lot of them out there but the battery
technology they use has been around for years. Lots of fancy batteries
in development labs and in Universities but none in any commercially
available vehicle.


A new technology has just been announced, which uses sodium anodes and a
lithium-glass electrolyte. It claims greater durability, much less
flammability, and a considerably longer life than Lithium-ion.

Normally I'd go off muttering abouyt pipe-dreams except that the lead
researcher is John Goodenough. He has an excellent track record in this
field since he was in the team that developed the lithium-ion battery,
and shared the Nobel Prize for Chemistry for that. Says this tech could
be commercially successful in 5 - 10 years. The story is he

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/03/02/
canadian_firm_to_develop_goodenoughs_new_glass_bat tery/


=====

But, back to electric winches.

Here's the website for what looks to be the most successful German
electric winch maker:

http://www.startwinde.de/

The main site is in German, so if you don't read German, start here
instead:

https://onkelmaggus.beepworld.de/index.htm

This winch is basically a purpose-designed trailer containing a couple of
cable drums, a 200 kW electric motor and a big pile of lead-acid truck
batteries to act as a buffer between it and a 12-20 kW mains connection.

We looked at this system a few years back and decided that running cables
to the various places where we park our winch depending on the wind
direction was too expensive to justify going electric, so now we have a
Skylaunch and a Tost they refurbished, both running on LPG.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

  #17  
Old March 4th 20, 11:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kinsell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 546
Default Mini-Winch for FES

On 3/4/20 3:12 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 18:46:18 +0000, Dave Walsh wrote:

Really? You think "progress being made on electric cars and their
batteries"? Sure there are a lot of them out there but the battery
technology they use has been around for years. Lots of fancy batteries
in development labs and in Universities but none in any commercially
available vehicle.


A new technology has just been announced, which uses sodium anodes and a
lithium-glass electrolyte. It claims greater durability, much less
flammability, and a considerably longer life than Lithium-ion.

Normally I'd go off muttering abouyt pipe-dreams except that the lead
researcher is John Goodenough. He has an excellent track record in this
field since he was in the team that developed the lithium-ion battery,
and shared the Nobel Prize for Chemistry for that. Says this tech could
be commercially successful in 5 - 10 years. The story is he

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/03/02/
canadian_firm_to_develop_goodenoughs_new_glass_bat tery/



Yep, that's been making the rounds again recently. Announced in 2016,
supposed to be commercially viable in another 5-10 years. The good
thing is Goodenough is 97 years old, and unlikely to be around to take
criticism if it doesn't pay off.

In the mean time, we've got lithium-sulfer, lithium-carbon dioxide,
lithium graphene, the mysterious IBM seawater battery, semi-solidstate
lithium, and others to look forward to. Which one will deliver the
miraculous increase in capacity in a couple years that the electric
plane makers keep talking about?

I see the Germans burned up their Lilium eVTOL "jet" prototype a few
days ago, 36 ducted fans on something targeted as an electric flying
taxi cab. If they're going to keep burning up prototypes, maybe they
should do it in Greta Thundberg's back yeard, so she can experience what
a fully involved lithium battery fire actually smells like.
  #18  
Old March 5th 20, 12:03 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Al McNamara[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14
Default Mini-Winch for FES

On one level I think this is an interesting idea. The concept of a low
level launch and climb away on FES is one that I've
heard others raise, but always in relation to aerotow.

The norm in a winch launch is to gently transition to a 45 degree climb in
a way which ensures you can always recover to a safe attitude and
subsequent landing. This transition typically happens at 30' - 100'. In
principle, if there was enough demand, I think it would be possible to
develop a lower powered winch, and a shallower climb to release, but from a
safety perspective, you would need to be able to ensure that if the FES did
not start, you could always land safely. Given the likely release height,
this would need a long enough run to land ahead safely from any failure.
The dynamic would be very site specific.

While any 'lower powered winch' might be slightly cheaper than one which
could launch to higher heights, most of the engineering would be very
similar, and my guess is not much cheaper. The days of low cost, self help
winches have largely gone in Europe, with the reality being that while
these were cheap(ish) to build, they could be quite dangerous. The modern
equivalent are much, much safer to operate (ground operations and flying
wise) but expensive. IIt;s an interse think for most US operations with
limited winch experience, the learning curve for even the most modern kit
would be steep.

Also factor in that most high performance gliders will want to get airborne
fully ballasted. This increases the likelihood of a launch failure, and
might make a safe landing from a failure much more interesting. I have
thousands of winch launches, and train others to recover from failures, but
always choose to fly my ballasted Ventus from aerotow. It's just about the
risk balance.

It's an interesting idea, and is certainly possible in my view, but I don't
really think it's commercially viable option where there is no existing
infrastructure. At our club, with all of the winch launching
infrastructure in place, the small number of FES equipped gliders choose to
go to the top of the winch launch (we would charge the same anyway). Lower
launches would save some fuel, but mixing lower launched with higher ones
would be a pain, and save no time.

Overall, I think a low level aerotow might be a much better option.


While winch launching is very common in Europe,

At 05:38 04 March 2020, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

This is just a thought... =20

I=E2=80=99ve recently been extremely interested in the FES (Front

Electric
=
Sustainer) sailplanes. They are becoming quite popular. Even very
high-pe=
rformance racing sailplanes like the Ventus 3 are being sold with FES
syste=
ms installed.

I am the U.S. dealer for DG/LS and they offer the LS8e neo with FES and
the=
new DG-1001e neo with FES prototype will fly very soon. It will be the
fi=
rst 2-seat sailplane with FES. I would love to trade my DG-1000S in for

a
=
DG-1001e neo with FES, but so far my DG-1000S co-owners aren't ready for
th=
at upgrade.

I'm not very experienced with winches and certainly not an expert on such
m=
atters, but I think there may be a nice market for a very small electric
wi=
nch designed to get an FES-equipped sailplane just up to 100 feet
=E2=80=93=
high enough to use the FES to climb to the first thermal. Even
self-launc=
h capable FES sailplanes would benefit from a small winch because they
woul=
d save much more of the sailplane's battery for use later in the flight -
s=
ince the initial takeoff roll requires a lot of power.

You can see an interesting video showing an FES-equipped sailplane taking
a=
n autotow to about 100 feet he=20
https://youtu.be/pTeNKM2cXQk=20

I would think that an electric winch could get a glider to 100 feet quite
e=
asily and be quite small and relatively inexpensive. The rope needed
would=
be much less, and the drum could be much smaller =E2=80=93 I imagine.

A "level ground bungee launch" to 100 feet would be another interesting
opt=
ion. But I would think that would have risks from by the bungee snapping
o=
r coming loose and hurting someone.=20

Any thoughts...? I'm just dreaming about the future of gliding...

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.


  #19  
Old March 5th 20, 07:22 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
son_of_flubber
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,550
Default Mini-Winch for FES

I'd rather take my chances on something that would accelerate the glider 0-50 knots in 50 meters with the FES running from the very start of the roll. This would increase available runway ahead for launch failure and conserve a bit of battery power. Fully automated with pilot pushing the go button..

How much runway do you need to self-launch a heavy two place FES when there is sink and windshear present?

  #20  
Old March 5th 20, 08:06 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mark Morwood
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12
Default Mini-Winch for FES

I'd rather take my chances on something that would accelerate the glider 0-50 knots in 50 meters with the FES running from the very start of the roll. This would increase available runway ahead for launch failure and conserve a bit of battery power. Fully automated with pilot pushing the go button.

You just need to an old aircraft carrier catapult!
 




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