the trend is............

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:29:16 -0600, Bill Daniels wrote:

Most proposals include a ~20KW genset to charge up a high power
density(LiFePo4 or ultracapacitors) battery pack between launches. The
battery pack acts as a buffer to store enough energy for 40 seconds or
so of maximum power. Think hybrid automobiles.

Anybody know the fuel consumption of such a gen set?

FWIW the German ESW-2B Electrowinde, which uses truck batteries to buffer
a 220 kW launch motor, needs a 12kW to 20kW mains feed, so a fairly small
trailer genset would do the trick. We looked at the economics of using
one and decided that the cost of cabling the field was prohibitive, but
IIRC we estimated the operating cost per launch to be about GBP 0.80 at
British electricity costs, or around $US 1.50 - not a lot.

These are likely to be extremely automated winches so I wouldn't pay a
winch driver very much - if anything. Professional winch drivers are
likely to go extinct the way elevator (Lift?) operators did.

Point, but if the club is operating 7 days a week with almost continuous
training courses you need a paid winch driver no matter how easy the
winch is to operate.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Oct 21, 2:15*pm, toad wrote:
On Oct 19, 4:56*pm, Martin Gregorie

wrote:

Move near to a winching site and you'll have the last laugh as fuel
prices go sky high.

I know places where you can winch straight into wave....

--
martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org * * * |

I would have to move at least 1000 miles, and probably across the
Atlantic ocean to get near a winch launch site. *If gas gets stupid
expensive, I'll have to switch to sailboats, cause I live right on the
water.

Todd Smith
3S
1000miles? probably not

From you
Dansville, NY 333mi
Perkasie, PA 173mi
North Adams, MA 127mi (still listed on web site, but not sure of
current winch status though)

On Oct 21, 4:32*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Oct 21, 2:15*pm, toad wrote:

On Oct 19, 4:56*pm, Martin Gregorie

wrote:

Move near to a winching site and you'll have the last laugh as fuel
prices go sky high.

I know places where you can winch straight into wave....

--
martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org * * * |

I would have to move at least 1000 miles, and probably across the
Atlantic ocean to get near a winch launch site. *If gas gets stupid
expensive, I'll have to switch to sailboats, cause I live right on the
water.

Todd Smith
3S

1000miles? probably not

From you
Dansville, NY 333mi

I'll check it out.

Perkasie, PA 173mi

I think the PGC didn't use their winch very much and might not have it
anymore.

North Adams, MA 127mi (still listed on web site, but not sure of
current winch status though)

Does not use their winch very often.

I have actively looked for places to get winch training in the eastern
US. Preferably in a concentrated manor. The only place that I found
was in Texas !

Then I heard a rumor that Bermuda High does a "winch week" in the
spring. But I can't find any mention of winch on their training page.

If anyone has direct knowledge of an active winch operation that does
training in the east US, please let me know.

Todd Smith
3S

"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:29:16 -0600, Bill Daniels wrote:

Most proposals include a ~20KW genset to charge up a high power
density(LiFePo4 or ultracapacitors) battery pack between launches. The
battery pack acts as a buffer to store enough energy for 40 seconds or
so of maximum power. Think hybrid automobiles.

Anybody know the fuel consumption of such a gen set?

FWIW the German ESW-2B Electrowinde, which uses truck batteries to buffer
a 220 kW launch motor, needs a 12kW to 20kW mains feed, so a fairly small
trailer genset would do the trick. We looked at the economics of using
one and decided that the cost of cabling the field was prohibitive, but
IIRC we estimated the operating cost per launch to be about GBP 0.80 at
British electricity costs, or around $US 1.50 - not a lot.

These are likely to be extremely automated winches so I wouldn't pay a
winch driver very much - if anything. Professional winch drivers are
likely to go extinct the way elevator (Lift?) operators did.

Point, but if the club is operating 7 days a week with almost continuous
training courses you need a paid winch driver no matter how easy the
winch is to operate.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

I've been impressed with the ESW-2B but the wet cell lead acid batteries are
problematic. They're relatively cheap to begin with but the replacement
costs come every 5 years or so. You need 50 of them just to get the power
output high enough. The charge/discharge efficiency isn't great either.
LiFePo4 batteries are more expensive but they are much more efficient and
last far longer. The power density means you don't need nearly as many of
them. Now if EESTOR's ultracaps actually work as advertized....

I'd get a diesel genset and run it on waste vegitable oil from a deep fryer
(homemade biodiesel) just for the greenwash effect and the nice smell.

PGC does have a winch and it is used weekly. Earlier this year winch
sessions were on Saturday afternoons, and lately they've been on
Thursday nights. Several pilots have become winch qualified this year.

-John

toad wrote:
I think the PGC didn't use their winch very much and might not have it
anymore.

On Oct 21, 2:49*pm, toad wrote:
On Oct 21, 4:32*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:



On Oct 21, 2:15*pm, toad wrote:

On Oct 19, 4:56*pm, Martin Gregorie

wrote:

Move near to a winching site and you'll have the last laugh as fuel
prices go sky high.

I know places where you can winch straight into wave....

--
martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org * * * |

I would have to move at least 1000 miles, and probably across the
Atlantic ocean to get near a winch launch site. *If gas gets stupid
expensive, I'll have to switch to sailboats, cause I live right on the
water.

Todd Smith
3S

1000miles? probably not

From you
Dansville, NY 333mi

I'll check it out.

Perkasie, PA 173mi

I think the PGC didn't use their winch very much and might not have it
anymore.

North Adams, MA 127mi (still listed on web site, but not sure of
current winch status though)

Does not use their winch very often.

I have actively looked for places to get winch training in the eastern
US. Preferably in a concentrated manor. *The only place that I found
was in Texas !

Then I heard a rumor that Bermuda High does a "winch week" in the
spring. *But I can't find any mention of winch on their training page.

If anyone has direct knowledge of an active winch operation that does
training in the east US, please let me know.

Todd Smith
3S

PGC sold their old winch to Finger Lakes and bought the Lawler winch
from Memphis. Whether it's in regular use, I have no idea.
www.crosscountrysoaring.com in Minnesota is a commercial operation
with a winch now on the menu although they will be standing down on
training about now for the winter. Recently 2500agl was achieved.

Frank

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:15:43 -0700, toad wrote:

On Oct 19, 4:56Â*pm, Martin Gregorie
wrote:

I know places where you can winch straight into wave....

The nicest one I know was several years ago at Portmoak (Scotland), in
the days when glider fuselages were doped canvas over steel tube and
wood. I was told this story during a recent visit which, alas, got me no
wave climbs though the ridge was fun for this flatland pilot.

An older pilot took a winch launch, noticed weak wave at release and sat
there, going slowly but surely up above the winch, eventually
disappearing upwards. The next few gliders to launch headed for the
ridge, missing the wave.

Eventually our pilot reappeared and landed. He was apparently a stroppy
guy and was quite loud about the idiots who'd headed for the ridge
instead of seeing and following him. Anyway, when asked how high he'd
got, he said "18,000 feet". People knew his altimeter was dodgy and asked
how he decided when to come down. His reply was that when his cigarette
went out for the third time he knew he was high enough!

If gas gets stupid expensive,

I was thinking as much about the disappearance of 100LL avgas as what it
might cost in future.

If auto gas also gets costly commuting habits may have to change.
Consider the joys living by the gliding club and teleworking from purpose-
built office space at the field.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:57:19 -0600, Bill Daniels wrote:

LiFePo4 batteries are more expensive but they are much
more efficient and last far longer.

That's certainly what's said, but I don't think they've been around long
enough for anybody to have measured their life under actual working
conditions. I know that Lange are now quoting 4500 charge/discharge
cycles, but I also know that their battery has a LOT of of computing
power monitoring down to the individual cell level and that the battery
looks modular enough for dud cells to be replaced fairly easily. That
system has to make a considerable difference to battery life, because a
lot of phone batteries die long before the often quoted 1000 cycles:
under 400 seems nearer the mark.

Now if EESTOR's ultracaps actually work as advertized....

Yes, they should be better than any battery when used as buffer storage.
Discharge rate limited only by the connecting cables and no chemical
cycling to limit the working life.

I'd get a diesel genset and run it on waste vegitable oil from a deep
fryer (homemade biodiesel) just for the greenwash effect and the nice
smell.

The smell may become a drag, but otherwise top marks for that thought!

The first mainframe I worked on had its aircon intake rather too close to
the extractor vent of the local chippie. About 11:00 each morning the
computer room was suddenly suffused with the smell of hot, fishy oil as
they fired up to be ready for the lunch-time rush. The novelty soon wore
off.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

John and Frank,

Thanks for the info, I'll check them both out.

Todd

On Oct 21, 8:29*pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
"Cats" wrote in message
snip
and also wages for clubs which have paid winch drivers.
_______

These are likely to be extremely automated winches so I wouldn't pay a winch
driver very much - if anything. *Professional winch drivers are likely to go
extinct the way elevator (Lift?) operators did.

My life is much more in the hands of a winch driver than a lift
operator. If something goes wrong (and eventually it will), doing the
wrong thing at the winch end can be potentially fatal. It also gets
rid of the problems of whose ever turn it is to drive the winch not
turning up, finding it's your turn on the day of the month/year/
decade, and the abuse equipment seems to take at the hands of club
members.