Bad Stories about Plane Purchases

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 00:43:29 GMT, Jon Kraus
wrote:

You must be freakn' cursed !!! Is there a Kennedy in your family
somewhere. :-) That or you are one of the unluckiest souls I have ever
heard of.... What are the chances of this happening??? Serously...
Sorry to hear of your delema... Is everything OK now?

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA



No Kennedys in the family! The engine is still at the overhaul shop
and should be back in the plane in a couple of weeks.

j

Jay Honeck wrote:

We just like spending your money!

Hey, now!

I gotta stop listening to you guys...

Why? *You* like spending your money too! :-)

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

Please clarify your statements.

What do you mean by "unscrupulous buyer" and that last bit about
"God's opinion about money".

Seems you may have your "knickers in a bundle"

Paul

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message ...
tony roberts wrote:

Two of my friends each have aircraft that had accident damage over 30
years ago. So What?

You are quite correct. Properly repaired accident damage is no problem, and the
longer it's been since the repair, the less important it is. Unless, as you say, the
damage is recent, it's just a tool that unscrupulous buyers use to try to talk the
price down.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

Jon Kraus wrote in message .. .
I am looking into purchasing my own plane... I think that I am pretty
aware of the costs (as much as a non-owner can be). I would like to
hear from those of you who have unfortunately have had a bad (expensive
or otherwise)experience with a plane purchase. I will also post for good
experiences. Thanks !!

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
(possible Mooney buyer)

Howdy,

Mine was a 66 M20E

If I was going to do it again, I wouldn't bother with a buyers agent.
The sales process is about 3 pieces of paper, and a sales contract.
Definately not worth the percentage.

The prepurchase: BE THERE, and ASK QUESTIONS!

Don't even think about proceeding unless the guy doing the prepurchase
is recommended by another Mooney owner. They are simple for complex
aircraft, but the stuff that fails is different, and just as expensive
to fix. Joe cessna-wrench is not going to check everything that needs
to get checked.

Have a pre-purchase contract, and then work an annual into the deal.
The planes going to be all apart anyway, might as well complete the
job.

Logs. All of them. ALL OF THEM. I was niave, and didn't know there was
supposed to be a prop log too. Worthless (assorted creative explitives
deleted) buyers agent didn't say a word about it. Prop came off for
annual and the mechanic told me there was evidence of a prop strike.
Nothing in the airframe log about it, no wonder there was no prop log.

The prop TSO is a bigger deal than you might think. The existing
blades may or may not be salvagable at the next overhaul. Several
grand will be in play when all is said and done.

There was an expensive control rods AD that came out a few years ago.
STC fixed it. It will save you $100 at least yearly if it has been
done.

The johnson bar gear is the best LG system in the world IMHO. But
double check the light. It is possible to get it in the -down-
position and NOT locked. You have to jiggle it when this happens, and
more than one person has collapsed a gear because they didn't double
check the light.

Have a hell of a war chest. I'm not kidding. It doesn't take much to
go wrong for that thing to eat you alive. The long term ownership
costs quoted are capitalized over years. But expect 75% of the next
five years costs to show up in years 1 and 2.

I would go with the F model with the johnson bar gear if I was back in
the market. I think that is the best payload/performance/features
combination, with the Super21 being next. Most of the later models are
really 2 place aircraft until you get over the six digit mark.

I like the brittain autopilot. Some folks don't, until they are knee
deep in it and getting behind the curve. Then they are glad they have
it too.

Performance is awesome. People who complain about the ailerons haven't
figured out what the rudder is for yet.

Get a Mooney specific instructor. There are a couple instructors
around the country who train in Mooney's specifically. Don't expect a
brand C driver at your local patch to help you learn all the nuances
of this thing. He will train you WRONG, which is the reason why so
many people whine about how hard they are to land. They fly an orange
like an apple and get miffed when their landings don't squeek.

Figure the insurance companies dual into your numbers. Mine required
20 hours, regardless of the fact that I already had my license. Which
was good, because it does take a bit to learn how to talk to her.

You will become a master of the forward slip, especially when landing
over the proverbial 50 ft tree. She can descend like a meteor with a
little skill. Kindof neat staring at the numbers through the hamburger
window.

-Hope that helps!
-Matt

Paul wrote:

Please clarify your statements.

What do you mean by "unscrupulous buyer" and that last bit about
"God's opinion about money".

Unscrupulous means people without scruples (look it up). Someone who attempts to
reduce the price based on a 30-year-old damage history has none. As to the quote,
it's an old Irish saying. Live with it.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...
Unscrupulous means people without scruples (look it up).
Someone who attempts to reduce the price based on a
30-year-old damage history has none.

Only the seller can control the price. A buyer who tries to
"unscrupulously" control the price will get outbid by someone else.

I can think of ways a buyer can be unscrupulous, but trying to negotiate a
lower price based on information the *seller* provided or which is
documented as true hardly seems unscrupulous to me. The seller is free to
accept or reject the buyer's logic, as they see fit.

Pete

In article , "Peter Duniho"
wrote:

Unscrupulous means people without scruples (look it up).
Someone who attempts to reduce the price based on a
30-year-old damage history has none.

Only the seller can control the price. A buyer who tries to
"unscrupulously" control the price will get outbid by someone else.

I can think of ways a buyer can be unscrupulous, but trying to negotiate a
lower price based on information the *seller* provided or which is
documented as true hardly seems unscrupulous to me. The seller is free to
accept or reject the buyer's logic, as they see fit.

well, it's hardly ethical to base a negotiating point on a
bogus premise.

--
Bob Noel
Seen on Kerry's campaign airplane: "the real deal"
oh yeah baby.

Bob Noel writes:
well, it's hardly ethical to base a negotiating point on a
bogus premise.

Really? In which case buyers should just hand over all their money to
sellers?

If a buyer is going to negotiate, they need a reason to ask for a
lower price. It could be a real reason, such as "I don't have that
much money", or it could be a mostly made up reason such as "perhaps I
can get a better deal up the street". But what it really comes down
to is "I don't want to pay you that much, and I don't think anyone
else will either." If the seller disagrees, they can take a risk and
try to sell to someone else.

Chris
--
Chris Colohan Email: PGP: finger
Web: www.colohan.com Phone: (412)268-4751

In article , Christopher
Brian Colohan wrote:

well, it's hardly ethical to base a negotiating point on a
bogus premise.

Really?

yes. Really.

In which case buyers should just hand over all their money to
sellers?

wow! how the heck did you go way over there? talk about
non sequiters (or however it's spelled).


If a buyer is going to negotiate, they need a reason to ask for a
lower price. It could be a real reason, such as "I don't have that
much money", or it could be a mostly made up reason such as "perhaps I
can get a better deal up the street". But what it really comes down
to is "I don't want to pay you that much, and I don't think anyone
else will either." If the seller disagrees, they can take a risk and
try to sell to someone else.

if a buyer has a real reason to lower the price, then fine.

If the buyer has a bogus reason, then that cannot be considered
ethical.

And it cuts both ways. If a seller has a real reason for setting
the price, then fine. If the seller has a bogus reason, then that
also cannot be considered ethical.

--
Bob Noel
Seen on Kerry's campaign airplane: "the real deal"
oh yeah baby.

Bob Noel writes:
If a buyer is going to negotiate, they need a reason to ask for a
lower price. It could be a real reason, such as "I don't have that
much money", or it could be a mostly made up reason such as "perhaps I
can get a better deal up the street". But what it really comes down
to is "I don't want to pay you that much, and I don't think anyone
else will either." If the seller disagrees, they can take a risk and
try to sell to someone else.

if a buyer has a real reason to lower the price, then fine.

If the buyer has a bogus reason, then that cannot be considered
ethical.

And it cuts both ways. If a seller has a real reason for setting
the price, then fine. If the seller has a bogus reason, then that
also cannot be considered ethical.

If I am going to negotiate for any big ticket item, I am going to do
the following:

a) Decide the maximum I want to pay. This is a hard limit, and I will
not exceed this during negotiations.

b) Decide how much I would _like_ to pay. This is my goal.

c) Arm myself with a big list of reasons not to buy the item in
question. This is my only defense and means of influencing the price.
Items on this list could include "I can get a better price elsewhere",
"another plane is almost as good and has lower risk of problems", "I
don't like the colour so much", or "I could get a really nice car for
this money instead". Some of these reasons may not be reasons for
avoiding purchasing the plane, but they certainly are reasons which
may make me more reluctant to buy at a particular price.

This is basic business negotiation. If you can't walk away from a
deal, you shouldn't be negotiating, because you will be fleeced.

Now you are saying there is a clear distinction between "real reasons"
and "bogus reasons" for wanting a lower price. I disagree, it is not
that clear.

For example, you claim that it is unethical to negotiate a lower price
based properly repaired damage in the distant past. But you agree
that recent damage is a cause for concern, and should result in a
lower price. What is the dividing line between these two cases? How
many years after the repair does using this as negotiating point
transition from being an intelligent buyer to being nitpicky? How
many years does it take to become downright unethical? Drawing a
clear line is hard. Also, different people will draw this line in
different places.

As long as this is ambiguous, it is fair game for price negotiation.
I may want a lower price because I know that when I sell the plane
someone _else_ will want a lower price. If you think the damage
history is no longer relevant, then don't budge in your price. If you
find a buyer who agrees, then you will get a higher price.

Because of this, as an astute buyer, I will be sure to explore any
potential problems during negotiation, if only to allow me to properly
negotiate a fair price. If I bring something up (such as long past
damage history) and the price changes, then perhaps the seller thinks
it is important. If not, then I have to decide how important it is to
me. Not only am I a buyer, but I have to put myself in the shoes of
any buyer who later might buy the plane from me, if only to avoid
getting hosed if I ever have to sell the plane.

If you believe it is unethical to talk about your needs, desires, or
fears (even if they are small or remote) during a business
negotiation, then I suspect you are naive. You certainly won't get
the best price when negotiating as a buyer or a seller...

Chris
--
Chris Colohan Email: PGP: finger
Web: www.colohan.com Phone: (412)268-4751