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#21
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Electric Winch Project
On Sunday, September 2, 2018 at 8:43:10 PM UTC-4, Skypilot wrote:
I find all this stuff sexy, in Australia we all live in a bit of a fantasy of energy, we export our LPG, Coal and Oil like it’s going out of fashion and the “green” movements of our parties ensure that subsidies and grants are available to clubs and organisations for being green. My home club of Kingaroy would be a perfect site to go for a huge grant for four elec whinches 2xmain and 2x retrieve. The runway area is 2000m x100m of grass right next to a bitumen runway, there is power available within 200m of both winch sites. The only problem is the fact that it’s a certified runway with probably 1-2 private movements per hour, so the local Shire council are unlikely to approve winching. It’s a pity as there is a coal mine 20km away and there is a planned coal mine next to the airstrip and we have elections soon. If there was ever a time to pitch an alternative to burning smelly dinosaur bones and reducing the noise foot print for our solar powered sport now is it I guess the panacea is to have an electric winch next to a battery bank powered by solar panels. In Australia this is feesable given the space and sunshine, BUT here is the crux - it’s battery technology. The future will have elec self launch gliders, elec tow planes, elec winches and all of this will be powered by a battery system that is dual use. The batteries will be in runway edges, house bricks and other structural items not just a battery. You will wake up in your house that is a storage facility hooked to the grid, most of the time you will be a next exporter of energy. Jump in your electric car and drive up to the field. Unplug your elec self launch Libelle and plug your car in, your hangar will have a storage battery bank in the wall bricks. Tow your glider out to the runway with your elec golf cart and launch into the wild blue yonder with your retractable self launch system with prop goverening. Once airborne you will go find a big fat thermal and redeploy your self launch prop mast and reverse the prop to recharge your batteries thereby extending your range. The next type of comps will be range comps that will allow much greater distances and speeds, perhaps one day we will see solar panels on wings that can feed power to the battery system built into the composite fibres. Fly until sunset and head to the clubhouse for a beer. I just don’t understand why so many on here are negative to people trying to improve things, because let’s face it if we don’t improve things our sport is dead. Justin -- Skypilot Amen to that, Justin! You hit the nail squarely on the head! Uli 'AS' |
#22
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Electric Winch Project
You bunch of electric sissies! I want a glider with a huge freakin pulse jet strapped to it burning heavy crude or coal tar, throwing fire out the back for half a mile, sounding like Gabriel has jacked his trumpet into an amplifier powered by relativistic jets from a supermassive black hole.
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#23
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Electric Winch Project
On Sunday, September 2, 2018 at 7:05:28 PM UTC-4, AS wrote:
I can tell you that the current starting load for a 430 hp electric motor is substantial. Don't know if they are using a soft start or something equal it takes a lot of power to start a 430 hp electric motor. The amp requirements are huge, interesting concept, huge electric requirements. Bob I think it would take almost 1 mg to start a 430 hp electric motor DOL. Huge power requirement. Bob - they are all using frequency controllers! These are not your on-off industrial motors used to power a belt conveyor or hammer-mill! Think electric cars ... Uli 'AS' Even with a VFD the electrical requirement is huge. Bob |
#24
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Electric Winch Project
Some very nice High Quality work you guys are doing
on this project! Look forward to seeing finished working winch. |
#25
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Electric Winch Project
That was a pretty interesting bit of science fiction.Â* And the
proceeding was not meant as criticism, only that most of the mentioned technology is so far into the future that most, if not all of us will never see it. My one criticism is not acknowledging that it takes power to make power (currently) and using a propeller to drive a motor/generator in flight will create a LOT of drag which translates directly into sink rate.Â* There's no free lunch yet, except in California. On 9/2/2018 3:08 PM, Skypilot wrote: I find all this stuff sexy, in Australia we all live in a bit of a fantasy of energy, we export our LPG, Coal and Oil like it’s going out of fashion and the “green” movements of our parties ensure that subsidies and grants are available to clubs and organisations for being green. My home club of Kingaroy would be a perfect site to go for a huge grant for four elec whinches 2xmain and 2x retrieve. The runway area is 2000m x100m of grass right next to a bitumen runway, there is power available within 200m of both winch sites. The only problem is the fact that it’s a certified runway with probably 1-2 private movements per hour, so the local Shire council are unlikely to approve winching. It’s a pity as there is a coal mine 20km away and there is a planned coal mine next to the airstrip and we have elections soon. If there was ever a time to pitch an alternative to burning smelly dinosaur bones and reducing the noise foot print for our solar powered sport now is it I guess the panacea is to have an electric winch next to a battery bank powered by solar panels. In Australia this is feesable given the space and sunshine, BUT here is the crux - it’s battery technology. The future will have elec self launch gliders, elec tow planes, elec winches and all of this will be powered by a battery system that is dual use. The batteries will be in runway edges, house bricks and other structural items not just a battery. You will wake up in your house that is a storage facility hooked to the grid, most of the time you will be a next exporter of energy. Jump in your electric car and drive up to the field. Unplug your elec self launch Libelle and plug your car in, your hangar will have a storage battery bank in the wall bricks. Tow your glider out to the runway with your elec golf cart and launch into the wild blue yonder with your retractable self launch system with prop goverening. Once airborne you will go find a big fat thermal and redeploy your self launch prop mast and reverse the prop to recharge your batteries thereby extending your range. The next type of comps will be range comps that will allow much greater distances and speeds, perhaps one day we will see solar panels on wings that can feed power to the battery system built into the composite fibres. Fly until sunset and head to the clubhouse for a beer. I just don’t understand why so many on here are negative to people trying to improve things, because let’s face it if we don’t improve things our sport is dead. Justin 'Martin Gregorie[_6_ Wrote: ;975440']On Sun, 02 Sep 2018 09:15:40 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote: - Didn't the German winch require being hooked up to the electrical grid? It seems the one currently under discussion would be self contained and portable (on the back of a truck). - All the electric winch designs I know about (and I assume the new US design is similar) require three things: a power supply, a large electric motor and a battery bank to act as a buffer between the first two items. The German Electrowinde winch needs a 12-20 kw mains supply to feed a 220kw motor via its battery buffer, so the batteries aren't just for decoration. It seems to me that the winch motor and battery bank capacity will be much the same whether the winch is configured as a towable trailer, on a truck chassis or built into a permanent building: they all need the same three part power train and it really doesn't matter whether the power source is the mains, a COTS 12-12kw trailer generator parked alongside or a truck with all three items installed on it. A major issue for a mains-powered electric winch, in the UK anyway, is the cost of cabling the airfield. We looked at it some years back: there are four places were we put our winch - normally on one end of 04/22 and less often on one end of 16/34 (obviously this is wind dependent), so we'd need to wire up all four points on the field with buried cables, and the winch points for 34 and 22 are both around 1km from the club house and hence the nearest mains supply. Wiring our airfield would be quite expensive. Consequently, we've gone with a Skylaunch running on LPG (cheap and environmentally benign fuel). And we already had the tractor used to move it between garage and the day's winchpoint. - What's the point? Why not just use a piston engine for the winch then? - Because a (much) smaller engine driving a generator to keep the battery bank topped up is probably more economical to run than a socking great V8 being running intermittently at high power, particularly when you include the cost of wear and tear from temperature-cycling the big engine. -- Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org -- Dan, 5J |
#26
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Electric Winch Project
At 21:35 02 September 2018, Dan Marotta wrote:
....and haul/pump the water. It comes in rivers and streams, pumped up for free by the sun. Just open a sluice. Gliders are fusion powered, this extends that to the launch. Chris |
#27
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Electric Winch Project
At 21:35 02 September 2018, Dan Marotta wrote:
....and haul/pump the water. It comes in rivers and streams, pumped up for free by the sun. Just open a sluice. Gliders are fusion powered, this extends that to the launch. Chris |
#28
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Electric Winch Project
At 01:47 03 September 2018, Bob Youngblood wrote:
On Sunday, September 2, 2018 at 7:05:28 PM UTC-4, AS wrote: I can tell you that the current starting load for a 430 hp electric = motor is substantial. Don't know if they are using a soft start or somethin= g equal it takes a lot of power to start a 430 hp electric motor. The amp r= equirements are huge, interesting concept, huge electric requirements. Bob =20 I think it would take almost 1 mg to start a 430 hp electric motor DOL.= Huge power requirement. =20 Bob - they are all using frequency controllers! These are not your on-off= industrial motors used to power a belt conveyor or hammer-mill! Think elec= tric cars ... Uli 'AS' Even with a VFD the electrical requirement is huge. Bob There are a lot of high power electrical systems around, trains for example. Underground trains in particular. Chris |
#29
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Electric Winch Project
Many posts to reply to, I pick yours since new.......
Bad enough for a glider operation to shar an airport with powered craft whether the field has US Federal funding or not. Then add in digging stuff up to run power lines to either run an electric winch or charge batteries at some decent rate. I "believe" our private owned, public use, federally funded airfield has most income from the glider operation. This does not mean we can do whatever. Income is...... Towplane gas use. At least one hanger. Tie downs. TO/landings. Etc. I have flown there for OVER 40 years. Look up Steve Bennis, I believe he started the airport, is in the Soaring Hall of Fame, etc. He gave me my pvt and cml glider checkrides. Digging up the field is still likely a hassle with the current owner to run power lines. If you can do it, great, pat on the back. |
#30
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Hi Dan, all understood, all of the technology is here now other than the small high capacitance cheap batteries. We have Tesla’s, GP15’s, self launch Libelle’s and in my and your country lots of sunshine. In fact one of our club legends who has been gliding for 65 years drove his new Tesla to the club the other day from 220km away. It took two days to recharge on the club mains power
I totally agree about the power and am the biggest supporter of nuclear power but we shall leave that for another day. The prop drag is only related to the torque attached to it, RATS have been around for ages, a goverener in the prop hub will load up the elec motor and via reverese current charge the battery, cleverer people than me will guess but it will probably have to be a 4kt thermal or so. It will all come down to the batteries and the various authorities allowing it to take place. You will probably still have a power bill to pay for the grid to allow society to function. [quote=Dan Marotta;975487]That was a pretty interesting bit of science fiction.Â* And the proceeding was not meant as criticism, only that most of the mentioned technology is so far into the future that most, if not all of us will never see it. My one criticism is not acknowledging that it takes power to make power (currently) and using a propeller to drive a motor/generator in flight will create a LOT of drag which translates directly into sink rate.Â* There's no free lunch yet, except in California. On 9/2/2018 3:08 PM, Skypilot wrote:[color=blue][i] I find all this stuff sexy, in Australia we all live in a bit of a fantasy of energy, we export our LPG, Coal and Oil like it’s going out of fashion and the “green” movements of our parties ensure that subsidies and grants are available to clubs and organisations for being green. My home club of Kingaroy would be a perfect site to go for a huge grant for four elec whinches 2xmain and 2x retrieve. The runway area is 2000m x100m of grass right next to a bitumen runway, there is power available within 200m of both winch sites. The only problem is the fact that it’s a certified runway with probably 1-2 private movements per hour, so the local Shire council are unlikely to approve winching. It’s a pity as there is a coal mine 20km away and there is a planned coal mine next to the airstrip and we have elections soon. If there was ever a time to pitch an alternative to burning smelly dinosaur bones and reducing the noise foot print for our solar powered sport now is it I guess the panacea is to have an electric winch next to a battery bank powered by solar panels. In Australia this is feesable given the space and sunshine, BUT here is the crux - it’s battery technology. The future will have elec self launch gliders, elec tow planes, elec winches and all of this will be powered by a battery system that is dual use. The batteries will be in runway edges, house bricks and other structural items not just a battery. You will wake up in your house that is a storage facility hooked to the grid, most of the time you will be a next exporter of energy. Jump in your electric car and drive up to the field. Unplug your elec self launch Libelle and plug your car in, your hangar will have a storage battery bank in the wall bricks. Tow your glider out to the runway with your elec golf cart and launch into the wild blue yonder with your retractable self launch system with prop goverening. Once airborne you will go find a big fat thermal and redeploy your self launch prop mast and reverse the prop to recharge your batteries thereby extending your range. The next type of comps will be range comps that will allow much greater distances and speeds, perhaps one day we will see solar panels on wings that can feed power to the battery system built into the composite fibres. Fly until sunset and head to the clubhouse for a beer. I just don’t understand why so many on here are negative to people trying to improve things, because let’s face it if we don’t improve things our sport is dead. Justin |
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