Winch Signals

Laws & Rules edn 16.3 does not say that the BGA recommends lights... I
could interpret it to mean the opposite!

5.6 One of the following procedures must be used for all launches, other
than bungey launches,

unless a serviceable telephone or radio system is installed between the
person in charge of the glider end of the cable and the winch or car
driver or tug pilot.


ONE BAT METHOD - Bats to be easily visible at the distance required:
(a) Take up slack, take off path being clear: One bat moved to and fro in
front of
the body.
(b) All out: One bat moved to and fro above the head.
(c) Stop: One bat held stationary, vertically above the head.
TWO BAT METHOD -
(a) Take up slack, take off path being clear: One bat moved up and down
(b) All out: Two bats moved up and down.
(c) Stop: Two bats held vertically above the head.
LIGHT METHOD –
(a) Take up slack, take off path being clear: Dashes of one second
duration and
three seconds interval.
(b) All out: Quick dots at one second interval.
(c) Stop: Steady light. Light may not be red or green.
5.7 When telephonic or radio signalling is used, means must exist for an
emergency stop
signal which can be received, notwithstanding the noise of the engine.



At 17:30 13 April 2009, John Roche-Kelly wrote:
My understanding is that the BGA recommends lights, but with
radio back-up.
As well as being noise independent lights require only one
power source whereas radios require two, one at each end!




At 12:13 13 April 2009, The Real Doctor wrote:
On 13 Apr, 02:00, Del C wrote:
The reason that the UK BGA insists on light signals (or bats)
is
the same reason as the German LBA insists on lineline
telephones: That
is
they are not prone to interference, or calls being blocked
out by other
users.

Since when has the BGA insisted on lights?

Ian

Best wishes

JohnR-K

The BGA Operational Regulations, Section 5 state the following (slightly
paraphrased to keep it short):

5.5 An adequate system of communication must exist between the person in
charge of launching and the winch or tow-car driver or tug pilot.

5.6 One of the following procedures must be used for all launches, other
than bungey launches, unless a serviceable telephone or radio system is
installed between the person in charge of the glider end of the cable and
the winch or car driver or tug pilot.

ONE BAT METHOD Bats to be easily visible at the distance required:
a) Take up slack: One bat moved to and fro in front of the body
b) All out: One bat moved to and fro above the head.
c) Stop: One bat held stationary, vertically above the head.

TWO BAT METHOD
a) Take up slack: One bat moved up and down
b) All out: Two bats moved up and down
c) Stop: Two bats held vertically above the head.

LIGHT METHOD:
a) Take up slack: Dashes of one second duration and three seconds
interval
b) All out: Quick dots at one second intervals
c) Stop: Steady light. Light may not be red or green.

5.7 When telephonic or radio signalling is used, means must exist for an
emergency stop signal which can be received, notwithstanding the noise of
the engine.

The lights requirement for winch launching exists because you are
generally too far away for bats to be effective (OK for car launching),
and because of the requirements of section 5.7.

Derek Copeland

At 17:30 13 April 2009, John Roche-Kelly wrote:
My understanding is that the BGA recommends lights, but with
radio back-up.
As well as being noise independent lights require only one
power source whereas radios require two, one at each end!


At 12:13 13 April 2009, The Real Doctor wrote:
On 13 Apr, 02:00, Del C wrote:
The reason that the UK BGA insists on light signals (or bats)
is
the same reason as the German LBA insists on lineline
telephones: That
is
they are not prone to interference, or calls being blocked
out by other
users.

Since when has the BGA insisted on lights?

Ian

Best wishes

JohnR-K

I'm sitting here wondering how the heck you see a bat a 2,000 feet.
Heck, they're only about 2 inches in diameter, and made of light ash.

-John

Old tennis racquets?


At 21:56 13 April 2009, jcarlyle wrote:
I'm sitting here wondering how the heck you see a bat a 2,000 feet.
Heck, they're only about 2 inches in diameter, and made of light ash.

-John

When we used signalling bats for autotowing, they where about 2ft diameter
orange plastic lids bolted to wooden sticks.

In the UK the general understanding of the BGA winch launching operational
regulations are that you can use radios if you must, but you must still
have a mechanical or lights method of signalling stop. To the best of my
knowledge all UK clubs normally use bats or lights for signalling, as do
the Dutch.

Derek Copeland


At 01:15 14 April 2009, Nyal Williams wrote:
Old tennis racquets?


At 21:56 13 April 2009, jcarlyle wrote:
I'm sitting here wondering how the heck you see a bat a 2,000 feet.
Heck, they're only about 2 inches in diameter, and made of light ash.

-John

Derek Copeland wrote:

To the best of my
knowledge all UK clubs normally use bats or lights for signalling, as do
the Dutch.


I've only winched launched at seven UK clubs, but all used either radio
(most common) or fixed line telephony, with lights as a backup system
only. None used bats.

When I drove the winch I always wanted to know who the pilot was,
something you can't signal with lights. The UK too fast (lower nose) and
too slow (wag tail) signals needed some intuitive interpretation in the
case of a student or inexperienced pilot, some of whom flew the entire
launch in a continuous state of mild pitch/yaw changes!

On 13 Apr, 22:11, Martin Gregorie
wrote:

Same goes for lights: you need them on the winch too. They provide a back
channel, let people on the field know when the cables are live, and on
some fields are needed to control airfield traffic.

I'd be MOST unhappy to be at a club that didn't have lights on the winch.

It's a good idea. For safety, though, the rule should be "light OUT =
cable LIVE". Does anywhere do it this way?

Ian

On 13 Apr, 22:56, jcarlyle wrote:
I'm sitting here wondering how the heck you see a bat a 2,000 feet.
Heck, they're only about 2 inches in diameter, and made of light ash.

Silly man. They're about six inches in diameter, and the rubber
coating stands out very well.

Ian

We must fly at a different set of clubs then! At my club we use Private
Mobile Radios (PMRs) to inform the winch driver what type of glider he (or
she, one of our winch drivers is a lady) is launching next, for sorting out
problems and for general communications on the site, not only related to
winch launching. The actual signalling is done by lights unless conditions
(such as a low sun) preclude this. We don't name the pilots being
launched, although we usually say if it's a first solo, or a first winch
launch on type.

Another club I regularly fly at use CB radios for general communications,
but again lights for signalling.

To use radios safely you have to be pretty sure than no outsiders can
interfere with or step on your transmissions.

I agree that the way some trainee pilots fly up the launch can be a bit
confusing. All you can do then is to give about the average power setting
for the glider type and hope. In any case there is always an instructor in
the back who can take over if things get too bad.

Derek Copeland

At 09:37 14 April 2009, Chris Reed wrote:


I've only winched launched at seven UK clubs, but all used either radio

(most common) or fixed line telephony, with lights as a backup system
only. None used bats.

When I drove the winch I always wanted to know who the pilot was,
something you can't signal with lights. The UK too fast (lower nose) and

too slow (wag tail) signals needed some intuitive interpretation in the
case of a student or inexperienced pilot, some of whom flew the entire
launch in a continuous state of mild pitch/yaw changes!

You should always treat winch cables as live, unless the winch driver has
confirmed that they are not!

We have rotating amber beacons on our winches and launch point vehicles
that come on when the signalling starts and a drum is selected on the
winch. These are a warning that the cables are very definitely LIVE.

Derek Copeland

At 10:36 14 April 2009, The Real Doctor wrote:
On 13 Apr, 22:11, Martin Gregorie
wrote:

Same goes for lights: you need them on the winch too. They provide a
back
channel, let people on the field know when the cables are live, and on
some fields are needed to control airfield traffic.

I'd be MOST unhappy to be at a club that didn't have lights on the
winch.

It's a good idea. For safety, though, the rule should be "light OUT =
cable LIVE". Does anywhere do it this way?

Ian