IDAHO FATALITY

On Aug 23, 1:50*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
You can have a student with
great coordination and glidepath control at altitude, and who can
explain everything perfectly on oral quizzing. Then, things get a
little tight in the pattern, like he's too close and too low. His
attention gets focused elsewhere and stress goes up, and next thing
you know the yaw string is right over to the side on base to final and
he wants to pull the stick back.

That's another one which I've asked about here before, but no one has
ever answered.

Around here we have ridges and students are very likely to have quite
a bit of practice at doing well-banked coordinated turns while a lot
closer to the ground than normal base-to-final turns, in the presence
of considerable wind drift, groundspeed higher than airspeed
(approaching the ridge from upwind) etc.

Is there correlation between screwed-up base to final turns and
flatland fliers?

On 8/22/2011 9:15 PM, ray conlon wrote:
On Aug 22, 10:09 pm, Mike
wrote:
On 8/22/2011 7:49 PM, Ramy wrote:









On Aug 22, 5:33 pm, Greg wrote:
On 8/22/2011 5:18 PM, BobW wrote:

Here's a non-rhetorical question for everyone to ponder.

Since there remains in the soaring world exactly zero functional need to
ever do a low-altitude high speed pass, and, to do so is to
intentionally take a completely avoidable risk, why ever do one?

Of course, there also is zero functional need to fly sailplanes -- those
who do it "take a completely avoidable risk." So, in the interests of
safely, should we terminate that activity?

I think pilots do low passes for the same reason they fly sailplanes --
it is fun. It all is a weighing process -- does the fun outweigh the risks?

While you're pondering, back in the early 1980's I went through my
low-altitude, pattern zoomie phase, 100% safely, and got 'startled' only
once. While in that phase, I was actively/uncomfortably aware that I
personally had zero justification for doing one (though I used the
'future contest practice' rationalization). I quit after the
'startlement-included' zoomie, asked myself (yet again) the question
posed at the start of this comment, and concluded it was a grownup form
of 'teenager-istic' showing off. We all know teenagers exhibit the
highest forms of good human judgment, right?

I've shared my (stupid, unjustifiable, indefensible) zoomie rationale.
What others might my fellow glider pilots have used or continue to use?

Curiously,
Bob W.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was going to say the same thing about aerobatics as well. Why do
loops and rolls and spins? Because it is fun! Contests are not the
only reason people do low passes. Just make sure you know what you are
doing and ask yourself if it worth the risk. Perhaps this discussion
will remind some people what the are the risks and next time when they
will consider a low pass they may decide that the fun does not
outweight the risk. This works for me.
Although this discussion is now focused on high speed low pass, it is
not clear that this is what indeed happened in Idaho. As someone else
pointed out it may have been a case of missjudged pattern altitude.
But what I found most disturbing in all the recent fatalities
including this one is that almost all involved where either CFIGs,
examiners, ATP, commerical pilots etc. Very experienced pilots and not
some clueless who did not know what he was doing.

Ramy

Just because you have lots of experience doesn't mean that you are not
clueless. Just look at AF447 for an example.

--
Mike Schumann

I think it was Stan Hall who commented years ago " a pilot who flys
with his glands rather than his brain does the sport no favors"

The AF447 guys were flying with neither. How can you be flying at 70
knots and worry about exceeding VNE rather than realizing that you are
stalled? The wind noise alone (or lack there of) should have been an
obvious clue.

--
Mike Schumann

Originally Posted by Andreas Maurer

On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 08:36:36 +0000, Walt Connelly
wrote:


Where I fly there are a couple of guys who frequently do low passes and
thankfully thus far without incident. They are high time pilots flying
high performance glass and I must admit that I enjoy and admire what
they do. I also have some nice videos of their exploits. My major
concern is for a situation where someone else might be in the pattern
and suddenly confronted by another glider joining then in close
proximity, hopefully not TOO close.


Hi Walt,

I'd suggest to widen your concerns to those high-time pilots, too.
However controlled a low pass might look like, one doesn't have it
completely under control.

Among a couple of really impressive things done by top pilots at low
altitudes (which amazingly all ended without an accident), I once had
the doubtful pleasure to see a current German champion do a perfectly
controlled, beautiful low pass on his (and my) home airfield... a
thing that he's done dozens of times before.

Unfortunately this time he managed to overlook a complete 35ft-high
club house (that's been standing there since 1960) and its surrounding
50ft tall trees, missing it by a couple (much less than ten) of feet.
He simply didn't think that he was THAT close........................
Amazing example of tunnel vision.



Best regards from Germany
Andreas

Andreas,

I agree, high time pilots can make mistakes too, I've seen it happen. The one crash that happened at my glider port since I started flying was by a 67 year old retired airline captain. A real eye opener because one would think a pilot of such experience would be less apt to err than someone such as myself. I am really surprised at the number of accidents recently and even more amazed that these were frequently with high time pilots, in one case a designated examiner and a CFI-G recertification ride. Another in Europe with an instructor and student and so on. It humbles someone such as myself with a commercial rating and 120 hours in gliders.

Walt

Originally Posted by Ramy

On Aug 22, 5:33*pm, Greg Arnold wrote:
On 8/22/2011 5:18 PM, BobW wrote:

Here's a non-rhetorical question for everyone to ponder.

Since there remains in the soaring world exactly zero functional need to
ever do a low-altitude high speed pass, and, to do so is to
intentionally take a completely avoidable risk, why ever do one?

Of course, there also is zero functional need to fly sailplanes -- those
who do it "take a completely avoidable risk." *So, in the interests of
safely, should we terminate that activity?

I think pilots do low passes for the same reason they fly sailplanes --
it is fun. *It all is a weighing process -- does the fun outweigh the risks?





While you're pondering, back in the early 1980's I went through my
low-altitude, pattern zoomie phase, 100% safely, and got 'startled' only
once. While in that phase, I was actively/uncomfortably aware that I
personally had zero justification for doing one (though I used the
'future contest practice' rationalization). I quit after the
'startlement-included' zoomie, asked myself (yet again) the question
posed at the start of this comment, and concluded it was a grownup form
of 'teenager-istic' showing off. We all know teenagers exhibit the
highest forms of good human judgment, right?

I've shared my (stupid, unjustifiable, indefensible) zoomie rationale.
What others might my fellow glider pilots have used or continue to use?

Curiously,
Bob W.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was going to say the same thing about aerobatics as well. Why do
loops and rolls and spins? Because it is fun! Contests are not the
only reason people do low passes. Just make sure you know what you are
doing and ask yourself if it worth the risk. Perhaps this discussion
will remind some people what the are the risks and next time when they
will consider a low pass they may decide that the fun does not
outweight the risk. This works for me.
Although this discussion is now focused on high speed low pass, it is
not clear that this is what indeed happened in Idaho. As someone else
pointed out it may have been a case of missjudged pattern altitude.
But what I found most disturbing in all the recent fatalities
including this one is that almost all involved where either CFIGs,
examiners, ATP, commerical pilots etc. Very experienced pilots and not
some clueless who did not know what he was doing.

Ramy

Ramy,

I went thru the aerobatic phase of my life. I learned to fly in power and had the opportunity to get some good instruction in aerobatics from a highly qualified instructor. We were at significant altitude, never below 3000 feet when we started a loop or roll. We were wearing parachutes and discussed the egress procedure. I learned to fly these maneuvers to improve my flying overall. Let's face it, If your level of skill exceeds the minimum requirements you should be safer than average.

Obviously the safest thing would be to sit at home on our hands and do nothing but watch TV. There were two fatalities in air shows in the last few days. A guy spun in and a wing walker trying to transfer from a plane to a helicopter fell to his death. They do those things at least in part for the thrill and people go to watch for the same reasons, at least vicariously.

With all the fatalities in recent weeks I ask the following question. Who among us will discontinue flying as a result? We will continue to fly, the important thing is that we learn from the mistakes of others. Low pass? Not a great idea but I don't think it's going to stop. Does doing one go thru my mind? Yes it does. Will I do one? I don't think so, I'm older, smarter and less prone to the irrational acts of youth. That being said, if an opportunity to fly some acro at altitude comes along, chute on and let's do it.

Walt

On Aug 22, 8:34*pm, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Aug 23, 1:50*am, John Cochrane
wrote:

You can have a student with
great coordination and glidepath control at altitude, and who can
explain everything perfectly on oral quizzing. Then, things get a
little tight in the pattern, like he's too close and too low. His
attention gets focused elsewhere and stress goes up, and next thing
you know the yaw string is right over to the side on base to final and
he wants to pull the stick back.

That's another one which I've asked about here before, but no one has
ever answered.

Around here we have ridges and students are very likely to have quite
a bit of practice at doing well-banked coordinated turns while a lot
closer to the ground than normal base-to-final turns, in the presence
of considerable wind drift, groundspeed higher than airspeed
(approaching the ridge from upwind) etc.

Is there correlation between screwed-up base to final turns and
flatland fliers?

Quite possibly. Mountain pilots know they can't trust the horizon so
they learn to control pitch attitude with airspeed and bank with rate
of turn. Mountain flying requires a bit of instrument skills. I've
ridden with pilots who were trying to keep their wings parallel to
sloping ground and point their nose at mountain peaks. Airports like
Leadville and Teluride in Colorado are notorious for inducing false
attitude illusions.

Taking this a bit further into the technical - I've set up turn-to-
final stall/spin scenarios while practicing stalls at altitude. The
result is almost always a wing drop followed by a spiral dive. The
glider is designed to resist spinning so it recovers from the
incipient spin on it's own it the first eighth of a turn leading to a
spiral dive.

If the student applies spin recovery control inputs in a spiral dive,
it gets VERY "interesting". This has led me to wonder if some so
called "stall/spin" accidents are really mis-handled spiral dive
recoveries. Maybe we should take a careful look at what we are
teaching.

On Aug 22, 8:17*am, Cookie wrote:
On Aug 21, 11:02*pm, hretting wrote:

You're all girliemen who can't accept that there will always be lousy
airmen. Low passes are loved by those who enjoy the rush of one's ship
'Stored Energy' being use in a most thrilling way, carefully trading
this energy for a unique flight profile.
Limit my airmanship because of an act by a poor pilot....? S__t no.
Let's set the speed limit to 45 on the interstate and see how you
would react.
Did I write you're all girliemen? Yep, above .....go eat your
broccoli.
R

Best low pass I ever saw was HW in his Nimbus 4 at Perry. Down the
entire runway at 5' pulling up into a loop. Now there's an airman!
It was the most fantastic soaring event I have ever witness and would
never attempt such a feat caus' I ain't that good.

Well there you go...........this says it all.........Why do we even
bother?

Hint: *Whenever somebody says "Hey everybody, watch this!" * You know
its probably not going to end well!

Cookie

PS (I am assuming the post above is "tongue in cheek" *right??)

No, it wasn't and to believe that all flying is for everyone else
shows how you have failed to have fun for YOUR sake. You need to
change your name to Cupcake, and buy yourself a pink dress.

R

On Tuesday, August 23, 2011 12:32:43 PM UTC-4, Bill D wrote:
If the student applies spin recovery control inputs in a spiral dive,
it gets VERY "interesting". This has led me to wonder if some so
called "stall/spin" accidents are really mis-handled spiral dive
recoveries. Maybe we should take a careful look at what we are
teaching.

That's how an Eta was destroyed during spin testing IIRC...

On 8/22/2011 6:49 PM, Ramy wrote:
On Aug 22, 5:33 pm, Greg wrote:
On 8/22/2011 5:18 PM, BobW wrote:

Here's a non-rhetorical question for everyone to ponder.

Since there remains in the soaring world exactly zero functional need to
ever do a low-altitude high speed pass, and, to do so is to
intentionally take a completely avoidable risk, why ever do one?

Of course, there also is zero functional need to fly sailplanes -- those
who do it "take a completely avoidable risk." So, in the interests of
safely, should we terminate that activity?

I think pilots do low passes for the same reason they fly sailplanes --
it is fun. It all is a weighing process -- does the fun outweigh the risks?


Snip...

Greg,

I agree 100% with you there's also zero functional need to fly sailplanes,
so...fair question, "Why do it?" And I submit the question deserves a
reasonably soul-searching answer from each and every individual opting to
pursue this grand and soul-enriching sport...

However, would you not agree there's at least one huge, fundamental difference
between committing soaring and performing a low-altitude zoomie, i.e. that the
former *requires* (government-overseen) instruction before you can put
yourself or anyone else at risk, and the latter does not?

Stated another way, any soloed glider pilot can opt to self-teach zoomies,
whereas no amount of self-taught glider flying skill will get you a glider
license.

So once again I'd ask, why intentionally perform a thin-margin, zero
functional utility maneuver, whose (only) Plan B is itself, by the combination
of aerodynamics and physics, a thinnish-margin option? At least (to take one
more or less self-taught, thin-margin, common, accepted soaring activity as an
example) in ridge flying, Plan B (the turn away from the ridge) rapidly (or at
least within Joe Pilot's control, anyway) increases one's margins, if he gets
a chance to perform it. Every way I look at a zoomie, I see thin margins, high
risk, and some form of 'showing off' self-gratification. I'll delete the
'showing off' if you do your zoomies only immediately prior to your off-field
landings, of course.

I was going to say the same thing about aerobatics as well. Why do
loops and rolls and spins? Because it is fun! Contests are not the
only reason people do low passes. Just make sure you know what you are
doing and ask yourself if it worth the risk. Perhaps this discussion
will remind some people what the are the risks and next time when they
will consider a low pass they may decide that the fun does not
outweight the risk. This works for me.

Ramy,

Again, I agree. However...

Who teaches themselves low-altitude, thin margin, aerobatics in gliders?

Where's the self-taught syllabus for performing zoomies?

Why not limit ourselves to above-pattern zoomies if they're so much fun?

What is it about being near the ground that makes zoomies more fun down there
than aloft?

Why not do them before all your off-field landings if 'ground-nearness' is a
crucial element? (Heck, *there* Joe Pilot can even rationalize he gets a
better look at the landing surface beforehand.)

Do you recommend self-taught glider aerobatics even well clear of the ground?
(If you do, I'll bet you great gobs of my own money that if you told some
newbie-to-aero to "Go for it," you'd also throw out lots of caveats, ship
limitations, etc., etc., etc.)
- - - - - -

Given we DO choose to self-gratify through soaring, I submit there are certain
'generally accepted' activities 'the group as a whole' decides are generally
better off not done. These undoubtedly change over time. For one example, in
the 1930's teaching soaring via solo-only primary trainers was the norm in the
U.S. Where is that the norm today? Why isn't it? What is it about zoomies that
should make them sacrosanct against similar safety concerns?

Yeah, I admit that last question has more than a whiff of rhetoric about it,
but I do believe that the time of the zoomie has come and gone, for reasons of
potential harm to the activity we all love. For the record, I cannot off the
top of my head recollect a zoomie-related fatality (the present case, for me,
still being 'not-governmentally-unconfirmed'/speculative), but I *do* remember
at least 3 contest-related finish gate zoomies noted in "Soaring" magazine in
which elevator flutter occurred. Oddly, not one of those pilots, nor any of
the observers (if one can believe what was reported) found those incidents fun
or emulatively entertaining.

Regards,
Bob W.

On Aug 23, 11:06*am, BobW wrote:
On 8/22/2011 6:49 PM, Ramy wrote:



On Aug 22, 5:33 pm, Greg *wrote:
On 8/22/2011 5:18 PM, BobW wrote:

Here's a non-rhetorical question for everyone to ponder.

Since there remains in the soaring world exactly zero functional need to
ever do a low-altitude high speed pass, and, to do so is to
intentionally take a completely avoidable risk, why ever do one?

Of course, there also is zero functional need to fly sailplanes -- those
who do it "take a completely avoidable risk." *So, in the interests of
safely, should we terminate that activity?

I think pilots do low passes for the same reason they fly sailplanes --
it is fun. *It all is a weighing process -- does the fun outweigh the risks?

Snip...

Greg,

I agree 100% with you there's also zero functional need to fly sailplanes,
so...fair question, "Why do it?" And I submit the question deserves a
reasonably soul-searching answer from each and every individual opting to
pursue this grand and soul-enriching sport...

However, would you not agree there's at least one huge, fundamental difference
between committing soaring and performing a low-altitude zoomie, i.e. that the
former *requires* (government-overseen) instruction before you can put
yourself or anyone else at risk, and the latter does not?

Stated another way, any soloed glider pilot can opt to self-teach zoomies,
whereas no amount of self-taught glider flying skill will get you a glider
license.

So once again I'd ask, why intentionally perform a thin-margin, zero
functional utility maneuver, whose (only) Plan B is itself, by the combination
of aerodynamics and physics, a thinnish-margin option? At least (to take one
more or less self-taught, thin-margin, common, accepted soaring activity as an
example) in ridge flying, Plan B (the turn away from the ridge) rapidly (or at
least within Joe Pilot's control, anyway) increases one's margins, if he gets
a chance to perform it. Every way I look at a zoomie, I see thin margins, high
risk, and some form of 'showing off' self-gratification. I'll delete the
'showing off' if you do your zoomies only immediately prior to your off-field
landings, of course.

I was going to say the same thing about aerobatics as well. Why do
loops and rolls and spins? Because it is fun! Contests are not the
only reason people do low passes. Just make sure you know what you are
doing and ask yourself if it worth the risk. Perhaps this discussion
will remind some people what the are the risks and next time when they
will consider a low pass they may decide that the fun does not
outweight the risk. This works for me.

Ramy,

Again, I agree. However...

Who teaches themselves low-altitude, thin margin, aerobatics in gliders?

Where's the self-taught syllabus for performing zoomies?

Why not limit ourselves to above-pattern zoomies if they're so much fun?

What is it about being near the ground that makes zoomies more fun down there
than aloft?

Why not do them before all your off-field landings if 'ground-nearness' is a
crucial element? (Heck, *there* Joe Pilot can even rationalize he gets a
better look at the landing surface beforehand.)

Do you recommend self-taught glider aerobatics even well clear of the ground?
(If you do, I'll bet you great gobs of my own money that if you told some
newbie-to-aero to "Go for it," you'd also throw out lots of caveats, ship
limitations, etc., etc., etc.)
- - - - - -

Given we DO choose to self-gratify through soaring, I submit there are certain
'generally accepted' activities 'the group as a whole' decides are generally
better off not done. These undoubtedly change over time. For one example, in
the 1930's teaching soaring via solo-only primary trainers was the norm in the
U.S. Where is that the norm today? Why isn't it? What is it about zoomies that
should make them sacrosanct against similar safety concerns?

Yeah, I admit that last question has more than a whiff of rhetoric about it,
but I do believe that the time of the zoomie has come and gone, for reasons of
potential harm to the activity we all love. For the record, I cannot off the
top of my head recollect a zoomie-related fatality (the present case, for me,
still being 'not-governmentally-unconfirmed'/speculative), but I *do* remember
at least 3 contest-related finish gate zoomies noted in "Soaring" magazine in
which elevator flutter occurred. Oddly, not one of those pilots, nor any of
the observers (if one can believe what was reported) found those incidents fun
or emulatively entertaining.

Regards,
Bob W.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Bob, while I understand your sentiments about zoomies, and I myself
rarely do them and will think twice before I consider making another
one, you can't be seriously suggesting to make them above pattern
altitude. All the fun is the ground rush at nearly 150 knots few feet
of the ground. It makes perfectly sense to do them for those enjoying
doing them, the same as it makes sense for some people to do BASE
jumping. It also made sense to change competition rules in such a way
of not encouraging pilots to do them. The point is that if one
consider doing a low pass, he/she should be sure they know how to
perform it, how much energy they need, how fast they should go, their
ship limitations, traffic etc. They should also consider all the risks
involved, which includes things like spoilers popping open at fast
speed that some ships has tendency for. If this happens few feet above
the ground it is very bad news.

Back to the subject, I heard some reports that the low pass was so
slow it may have not been a low pass but a botched downwind...

Ramy

Hmm, we recently had a lot of talk about practicing rope breaks, down
to 200' or so, with opinions that any self respecting pilot should
have no problem with a rope break at 200-300ft.

Gee, I have no problem getting higher than that on a well planned and
executed low pass, in everything from an ASK-21 and G-103 to an LS4 or
LS6.

So some of you guys are OK springing a sudden low altitude pattern on
a guy in training, but tell others that they shouldn't do low passes
at any time because they are "dangerous"?

You guys are hypocrites.

We soar because it's "fun". Nobody forces us to do it. For some, the
fun is in hanging around the airport in a 1-26 or 2-33, never out of
gliding range. Some enjoy bashing along the ridges in freezing
weather. Some like to see how high the wave will take them. Some
like to race against others, flying in marginal weather over marginal
terraing to see who is best. Some like pulling Gs.

None of it is necessary - we do it because we ENJOY doing it!

I enjoy pulling off a safe (yes, safe) low pass. I avoid getting into
a position where I intentionally try an unsafe low pass. The same can
be said about any other maneuver we do in gliders.

And I don't do it for you ******s on the ground who don't like them.
I do it for me, and my friends who enjoy the beauty of a skillfully
flown maneuver.

And you aint lived till you do a double formation low pass over an FAA
examiner...

He was cool about it!

Kirk
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