Grass Strips, Landing Technique, etc.

I have been following the "Grass Strip" thread and have a few comments:

I have a "high performance" Vintage Johnson Rocket (the hot rod of 1946)
and have based it on both grass and paved fields and have flown into and
out of grass fields ranging from "fantastic" to "I'd never go in there
again!"

I based at Frazier Lake (CA) for 8 years, where we would close the grass
during the wet season and land on the paved taxiway (really sporting
with a stiff crosswind). The grass was irrigated and kept well-manicured
and was easy on tires and was quite forgiving on sideslip angles during
crosswind rollout.

One of the finest strips I have ever landed on is Leeward (FL), where,
the only way you knew that you had landed was to notice that you were
slowing down. The roughest was Bob Lee (FL), which also has a lot of
dips and waves (a "Never again!" place).

The softest was another Florida grass strip a week after a hurricane
went through. It was WET and slowed us down quickly (using soft field
technique).

It took a fair amount of power to taxi, but we parked and did our
business. The only good thing about it was that it was 3500 feet long.

Takeoff was the maneuver I wondered about most, as my wheels were
sinking into the soil as I taxied (with a fair amount of power). I knew
that I could fly if I could get the nose to rotate and that I could
abort if not, due to the 3500 feet of "runway". I chose full flaps, to
facilitate lift and added full power and stick full back. Acceleration
was very sluggish, but eventually the nose rotated and we lifted off and
flew home.

Yesterday I witnessed a Baron pilot land nosewheel first, porpoise a
couple of times and eventually get control. Several of us there expected
to see the nosewheel fold and the Baron slide down the runway. Talk
about poor technique!

Orval Fairbairn wrote:

I have been following the "Grass Strip" thread and have a few comments:

I have a "high performance" Vintage Johnson Rocket (the hot rod of 1946)
and have based it on both grass and paved fields and have flown into and
out of grass fields ranging from "fantastic" to "I'd never go in there
again!"

I based at Frazier Lake (CA) for 8 years, where we would close the grass
during the wet season and land on the paved taxiway (really sporting
with a stiff crosswind). The grass was irrigated and kept well-manicured
and was easy on tires and was quite forgiving on sideslip angles during
crosswind rollout.

One of the finest strips I have ever landed on is Leeward (FL), where,
the only way you knew that you had landed was to notice that you were
slowing down. The roughest was Bob Lee (FL), which also has a lot of
dips and waves (a "Never again!" place).

The softest was another Florida grass strip a week after a hurricane
went through. It was WET and slowed us down quickly (using soft field
technique).

It took a fair amount of power to taxi, but we parked and did our
business. The only good thing about it was that it was 3500 feet long.

Takeoff was the maneuver I wondered about most, as my wheels were
sinking into the soil as I taxied (with a fair amount of power). I knew
that I could fly if I could get the nose to rotate and that I could
abort if not, due to the 3500 feet of "runway". I chose full flaps, to
facilitate lift and added full power and stick full back. Acceleration
was very sluggish, but eventually the nose rotated and we lifted off and
flew home.

Yesterday I witnessed a Baron pilot land nosewheel first, porpoise a
couple of times and eventually get control. Several of us there expected
to see the nosewheel fold and the Baron slide down the runway. Talk
about poor technique!

Your accounts got me to wondering ... how many of you all have actually
seen an airplane nose-over on a grass strip? I've been flying since
1978 at two airports that had grass strips (one had only grass until
just last year). I've NEVER seen an incident on a grass strip period,
let alone one that occurred because of failure to use short-field
technique. I haven't tried to search the NTSB archives yet. I'm sure
they have some accounts, but it certainly isn't the type of crash that
I've either heard or read about with any frequency.


Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Orval Fairbairn wrote:
snip

Yesterday I witnessed a Baron pilot land nosewheel first, porpoise a
couple of times and eventually get control. Several of us there expected
to see the nosewheel fold and the Baron slide down the runway. Talk about
poor technique!

Your accounts got me to wondering ... how many of you all have actually
seen an airplane nose-over on a grass strip? I've been flying since 1978
at two airports that had grass strips (one had only grass until just last
year). I've NEVER seen an incident on a grass strip period, let alone one
that occurred because of failure to use short-field technique. I haven't
tried to search the NTSB archives yet. I'm sure they have some accounts,
but it certainly isn't the type of crash that I've either heard or read
about with any frequency.


Matt

Me. There is a fly-in at Thomasville, GA every fall. It is a favorite of
the folks who fly antiques. About 10 years ago I was there and had the
misfortune of watching a vintage biplane go end over end during a botched
landing. I didn't see the beginning of the accident, but something drew my
eye to the aircraft right as the nose went into the ground. No idea whether
the accident was grass strip related, a mechanical failue (locked brakes?),
or simple pilot error. I don't remember the field conditions being anything
special on that day.

KB

Matt Whiting wrote:

Your accounts got me to wondering ... how many of you all have actually
seen an airplane nose-over on a grass strip?
Matt

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...08X07283&key=1

I responded to this one back in my days as a vollie firefighter.. its
the only one I've ever personally seen.. and it was a TRUE soft field on
that day, it had been raining for a few days and the ground when
saturated has the consistency of gumbo clay.

Dave

Kyle Boatright wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Orval Fairbairn wrote:

snip

Yesterday I witnessed a Baron pilot land nosewheel first, porpoise a
couple of times and eventually get control. Several of us there expected
to see the nosewheel fold and the Baron slide down the runway. Talk about
poor technique!

Your accounts got me to wondering ... how many of you all have actually
seen an airplane nose-over on a grass strip? I've been flying since 1978
at two airports that had grass strips (one had only grass until just last
year). I've NEVER seen an incident on a grass strip period, let alone one
that occurred because of failure to use short-field technique. I haven't
tried to search the NTSB archives yet. I'm sure they have some accounts,
but it certainly isn't the type of crash that I've either heard or read
about with any frequency.


Matt


Me. There is a fly-in at Thomasville, GA every fall. It is a favorite of
the folks who fly antiques. About 10 years ago I was there and had the
misfortune of watching a vintage biplane go end over end during a botched
landing. I didn't see the beginning of the accident, but something drew my
eye to the aircraft right as the nose went into the ground. No idea whether
the accident was grass strip related, a mechanical failue (locked brakes?),
or simple pilot error. I don't remember the field conditions being anything
special on that day.

I'm mainly interested in those directly attributed to the field being
grass, but not a soft field, and having the landing accident be due to
not using a soft-field technique on a "hard" grass field.

I searched the NTSB archives on the keywords grass and strip and got 500
or so hits, but in looking at a few, I couldn't find anything in this
category. Lots of stupid stuff, but not directly grass related. I
think one involved an SR-22 (which we had an extensive thread about
recenty) that landed on wet grass, skidded, and then attempted a
take-off and hit trees. However, it then mentioned that the person had
touched down with only 1200' left on a 2700' or so long strip. I'd
hardly blame such an accident on the grass. :-)

Matt

Dave S wrote:

Matt Whiting wrote:

Your accounts got me to wondering ... how many of you all have
actually seen an airplane nose-over on a grass strip? Matt


http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...08X07283&key=1

I responded to this one back in my days as a vollie firefighter.. its
the only one I've ever personally seen.. and it was a TRUE soft field on
that day, it had been raining for a few days and the ground when
saturated has the consistency of gumbo clay.

Ouch.

Yes, I've no doubt that failing to use soft field technigue on a soft
field is asking for trouble. I was thinking about our topic though of
failing to use soft field technique solely because the strip was grass,
not because it really was soft. I've never suggested that a soft field
should be landed on with anything other than your very best soft field
technique.

I suspect the NTSB has other similar reports if I can just find the
right list of keywords to ferret them out.

Matt

In article ,
Matt Whiting wrote:

Orval Fairbairn wrote:
[...]


Yesterday I witnessed a Baron pilot land nosewheel first, porpoise a
couple of times and eventually get control. Several of us there expected
to see the nosewheel fold and the Baron slide down the runway. Talk
about poor technique!

Your accounts got me to wondering ... how many of you all have actually
seen an airplane nose-over on a grass strip? I've been flying since
1978 at two airports that had grass strips (one had only grass until
just last year). I've NEVER seen an incident on a grass strip period,
let alone one that occurred because of failure to use short-field
technique. [...]

I've seen a grass strip nose-over -- in fact, it occured at Frazier
Lake, the grass strip Orval mentioned early in his post (about the only
conveniently-located trustworthy grass strip around here in the Bay
Area). Not sure what caused it, but I saw it happen from the air, which
was quite a sobering sight, despite the fact that the plane didn't look
too damaged from 2000' up. It doesn't appear to have been put into the
NTSB database, so I guess it was considered a fairly minor incident.

Hamish

Matt,

how many of you all have actually
seen an airplane nose-over on a grass strip?


I have. Cessna 172. Truly lousy landing. If anything, the nose wheel
would have folded sooner on pavement.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

I think one involved an SR-22 (which we had an extensive thread about recenty) that landed on wet grass, skidded, and then attempted a take-off and hit trees. However, it then mentioned that the person had touched down with only 1200' left on a 2700' or so long strip. I'd hardly blame such an accident on the grass. :-)

Had it been concrete, would the skid had occured? Would braking action
been sufficient to stop in the remaning runway? These are some of the
differences that might be attributable to grass.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

In article
,
Hamish Reid wrote:

In article ,
Matt Whiting wrote:

Orval Fairbairn wrote:
[...]


Yesterday I witnessed a Baron pilot land nosewheel first, porpoise a
couple of times and eventually get control. Several of us there expected
to see the nosewheel fold and the Baron slide down the runway. Talk
about poor technique!

Your accounts got me to wondering ... how many of you all have actually
seen an airplane nose-over on a grass strip? I've been flying since
1978 at two airports that had grass strips (one had only grass until
just last year). I've NEVER seen an incident on a grass strip period,
let alone one that occurred because of failure to use short-field
technique. [...]

I've seen a grass strip nose-over -- in fact, it occured at Frazier
Lake, the grass strip Orval mentioned early in his post (about the only
conveniently-located trustworthy grass strip around here in the Bay
Area). Not sure what caused it, but I saw it happen from the air, which
was quite a sobering sight, despite the fact that the plane didn't look
too damaged from 2000' up. It doesn't appear to have been put into the
NTSB database, so I guess it was considered a fairly minor incident.

Hamish

We used to "X" out the runway during winter (rainy season) at Frazier
Lake. This did not stop some boneheads from attempting to use the sod,
however. I can remember a number of times that some nonmember left
furrows in the runway. I don't recall, however, very many noseovers,
however.

My extreme soft field experience was at Eustis, FL (X55), Mid-Florida
Airport. I think that I left some furrows there! It was WET!