Spin

CV wrote:

I have vague memory about some kind of spin mode in an aerobatic plane,
that was only recoverable by applying full power. Ring a bell, anyone ?

Part of Jimmy Franklin's old routine (before he put the jet engine on his Waco) was
an inverted flat spin. When he began his recovery, you could hear the engine going
from idle to near full power several times.

George Patterson
If you don't tell lies, you never have to remember what you said.

G.R. Patterson III wrote:

Toks Desalu wrote:

And I wonder why they FAA removed spin training as requirement in early
years?


They removed it because many people were dying during spin recovery training. They
decided to teach people to avoid stalls and recover promptly from inadvertent stalls,
because an aircraft will not spin unless it stalls first. The FAA feels that the
reduced fatality rate proves they made the correct decision.

Canada removed spin training in the late 1990's for the same reason. We
kept it for decades after the U.S. gave it up, but our stall/spin fatality
rate was actually higher than the rate in the U.S. By the time I did my PPL
in 2002, spin training was already just a memory.

Transport Canada produced a report on the issue, basically concluding that
stall/spin accidents almost always happen too low for recovery, and since
practicing spin recoveries was killing the occasional student and
instructor, it made no sense to keep it on the syllabus.

One interest artifact of all that, though, is that since spin training was
part of the Canadian PPL until the late 1990's, my unscientific observation
is that Canadian flying schools are much less likely than American schools
to own Piper Cherokees/Warriors/Archers, since most Pipers from the 1970's
on do not allow intentional spins.


All the best,


David

In article ,
emoove (tony) wrote:


Never having jumped out of a perfectly good airplane, nor having had people
bail out of my M20J, I'm ignorant re carrying jumpers. Do they belt themselves
in place during take off and climb?

They are required to be belted for takeoff and landing...and in my
airplane if you're not belted in for takeoff I'll throw you out on the
runway. G

Is it likely they were all well aft, or fell back as the pilot slowed down for
their jump, or did he lose it on climbout?

The crash the original poster described was a Cessna 205 (the small
tail, underpowered 206). The jumper that "bailed out" was a student and
was standing on the gear leg when the airplane entered the spin..she
simply let go.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

Well, if i can have my 2 cents....

Now, the show prompted me to
consider taking some sort of spinning and recovering training. Am I being
overacting or paranoid?

I am not an airplane pilot, but a glider pilot, and I have done my training
in France, even if I have flown a couple of hours in the US. In my training,
spin was mandatory, and my instructor, before my solo, asked me to do 3 full
revolutions in a spin, and exit on a pre-determined axe. Certainly, a glider
is less impressive than an heavy plane and rotate relatively slower, but,
that's not the point.

When you fly sailplane, while you spiral in a lift, you are constanly
flirting with stalling, as the goal is to fly at the maximum lift
incidence/speed, which is a couple knots above stall, and when you are busy
trying to center as well as possible that anemic thermal, your speed is not
always perfect.

All that to say that I stalled (dissymetric, being in turn) many times with
my Standard Austria ( not the SHK ), as this sailplane is known to not like
too much slow speed, but i NEVER did more than an half rotation, losing less
than a hundred feet each time, as I do believe that if you know the signs
annonciating a stall, and react immediatly, most of the time you will not
even stall. (I also did many 300 kilometers circuits with my Austria)

All the above to say that, maybe, your best training would be to fly
sailplane, as you will know how to get out of a stall as fast as possible,
and flirt with the limits a lot more than you are used to in your airplane.

Bernard

"Elwood Dowd" wrote in message
...
Criminey, are snuff films legal for TV now?


There is no such thing as a snuff film.

Some airplanes, including some trainers, will not recover from a fully
developed spin. Nearly all have had to demonstrate the ability to recover
from an incipient spin, the Cirrus being a notable exception.

Spin training is of most value to instructors, and even there the practical
benefit is that it gives the instructors enough confidence to keep most of
them from always grabbing the controls away from the students.

I think it is also valuable for students who are afraid of stalls and stall
recoveries.

In article , tony
wrote:

Never having jumped out of a perfectly good airplane, nor having had people
bail out of my M20J, I'm ignorant re carrying jumpers. Do they belt themselves
in place during take off and climb?

The belts are there, but it is probably left to the individual as to
actually using them. Once airbore the jumpers can usually get rather
quickly (practice, practice, practice).
We had a bird nest in the engine compartment of our club 180 early one
Spring. As the plane was climbing to altitude with the first load of
the day, the nest began to smolder and smoke began waifting into the
cabin.
The pilot, scanning the panel and looking down towards the rudder
peddals, started to say, "Boys, I think we got a ..."
By that time, all five jumpers were out the door and gone!

On Wed, 05 May 2004 14:00:23 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
wrote:

Part of Jimmy Franklin's old routine (before he put the jet engine on his Waco) was
an inverted flat spin. When he began his recovery, you could hear the engine going
from idle to near full power several times.

George Patterson

I think, not positive, but I think that what he was doing was
attempting to blast air across the rudder to get it enough authority
to stop the spin.

I saw him do that at the airshow at Lebanon NH a number of years ago
before he put the jet engine on his Waco, and I swear he nearly did
not make it out of his flat inverted spin.

He'd had other maneuvers that he pulled out with far more altitude to
spare but this time it really did not look good. You could see him
horsing the controls and the engine went to full power and idle a
number of times and he was really getting low. I didn't see how he
could recover from the spin and still roll upright in time to pull
out.

He did, just. He was so low that he actually dipped down into the
slight drainage swale beside the runway as he pulled out and it was
obvious to me he did not plan it that way. What I mean is he only
just got the airplane upright and horsed the stick back immediately.
He might have some within a few feet of the ground. It could just be
me, but all the maneuvers after that appeared ragged and occured at a
much higher altitude. He seemed shaken.

The airshow was already shocking in that a woman pilot in a Pitt's
collided with a jumper and both died. The Pitts disintegrated and
went down and crashed beside the river and the parachutist was
decapitated.

His body floated overhead dripping blood along the way and landed
smack in front of the crowd.

I missed the collision. I'd seen the act before and wasn't paying
attention as the jumpers left their jump plane. Just saw the
particles of the airplane hanging in the air from the collision.

The woman and two other Pitts pilots were supposed to circle the
parachutists as they came in together. Only the pilots did not know
that a third guy was added to the jumpers, or at least I heard she did
not know. They saw two dive away and turned in to begin their
circling. Then the third jumped.

Corky Scott

so much for that preflight...

BT

"EDR" wrote in message
...
In article , tony
wrote:

Never having jumped out of a perfectly good airplane, nor having had
people
bail out of my M20J, I'm ignorant re carrying jumpers. Do they belt
themselves
in place during take off and climb?

The belts are there, but it is probably left to the individual as to
actually using them. Once airbore the jumpers can usually get rather
quickly (practice, practice, practice).
We had a bird nest in the engine compartment of our club 180 early one
Spring. As the plane was climbing to altitude with the first load of
the day, the nest began to smolder and smoke began waifting into the
cabin.
The pilot, scanning the panel and looking down towards the rudder
peddals, started to say, "Boys, I think we got a ..."
By that time, all five jumpers were out the door and gone!

The crash the original poster described was a Cessna 205 (the small
tail, underpowered 206).

Yup...dunno why I was thinking it was a C-210.
Here is the accident report.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...08X07972&key=1


-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*