Any Spins Lately??

If you haven't done any spins lately, why not? Have you ever gotten a
good spin checkout? Do you really understand what happens to get you
into a spin? Do you understand what is happening during a spin? Do you
know the proper technique for getting out of a spin in the airplane
you are flying?
Most importantly, do you realize a low altitude spin is virtually a
death sentence? A pilot who is properly trained in spins knows how to
avoid getting into them inadvertantly and especially below 1000'agl.
Every year pilots do a stall/spin accident and people die. Why should
this be? I'm really sick and tired of flight instructors who are
afraid of doing stalls and have NEVER done a spin because they are
afraid of them. How do you think that transfers to their students? I
see it when I do checkouts for pilots who are new to our operation or
request some training or a flight review.
Hopefully this will regenerate some discussion here and maybe save
some lives in the process?
Ol Shy & Bashful - Soaring Buzzard
World Infamous pilot/Instructor

"Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote in message
ups.com...
I'm really sick and tired of flight instructors who are
afraid of doing stalls

It shocks me, but I do run into these types.

and have NEVER done a spin because they are
afraid of them.

How do you get to be a CFI in the USA without having done spins at least
once? It is still required right?

As a student, I requested spin training before solo. It caused a bit of a
problem because they had to scare up chutes to stay legal, but they made it
happen. I ain't no stunt pilot, but I have never been afraid of an intentional
stall.

As an instructor, I felt that my required spin training was sufficient to
keep me and my student alive should an unintentional spin occur (such as a
botched stall recovery). I was perfectly happy to leave the spin training to
more experienced CFI's.

Vaughn

On Sep 3, 1:36 pm, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote:
"Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote in oglegroups.com...

I'm really sick and tired of flight instructors who are
afraid of doing stalls

It shocks me, but I do run into these types.

and have NEVER done a spin because they are
afraid of them.

How do you get to be a CFI in the USA without having done spins at least
once? It is still required right?

As a student, I requested spin training before solo. It caused a bit of a
problem because they had to scare up chutes to stay legal, but they made it
happen. I ain't no stunt pilot, but I have never been afraid of an intentional
stall.

As an instructor, I felt that my required spin training was sufficient to
keep me and my student alive should an unintentional spin occur (such as a
botched stall recovery). I was perfectly happy to leave the spin training to
more experienced CFI's.

Vaughn


Are parachutes required for spins in the U.S.? Not here in
Canada. Spin training is required for both Private and Commercial, and
shows up on the Commercial flight test. Now here's the conundrum:
Inadvertent stall/spins kill as many in Canada as they do in the U.S.
The training doesn't seem to prevent it. As a local friend said
recently, "You can't change stupid." Learning spin entry and recovery
by rote doesn't increase awareness of the situations that can bring it
on, and Transport Canada now wants to see spin scenario training.
Things like the low-speed skidding turn, departure stall, climbing
turn stalls and accelerated stalls, all the things that lead to a
spin. The pilot who wants to be an intelligent and safe pilot will
read up on the subject (see Kerschner) and get some scenario training.
I'll bet a lot of victims utter these last words: "Hey! What
happened?"

Dan

Not lately but a couple years back I took an introductory aerobatic
lesson and one of the things I requested was spins. Wow, what an eye
opener. I think we did four or five...basically a couple in each
direction and each one anywhere between 3-5 turns. I managed to screw
up the recovery a couple of times by not releasing opposite rudder once
the rotation stopped.

I'd highly recommend either an introductory aerobatic flight or upset
training where you can recover from spins. It will cost a chunk of
change but it very well could save your life one day. Oh, and the
introductory aerobatic lesson is a ton of fun BTW. Loops, rolls,
hammerheads, spins...oh yeah, I can see how aerobatics is addictive. :-)

Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
If you haven't done any spins lately, why not? Have you ever gotten a
good spin checkout? Do you really understand what happens to get you
into a spin? Do you understand what is happening during a spin? Do you
know the proper technique for getting out of a spin in the airplane
you are flying?
Most importantly, do you realize a low altitude spin is virtually a
death sentence? A pilot who is properly trained in spins knows how to
avoid getting into them inadvertantly and especially below 1000'agl.
Every year pilots do a stall/spin accident and people die. Why should
this be? I'm really sick and tired of flight instructors who are
afraid of doing stalls and have NEVER done a spin because they are
afraid of them. How do you think that transfers to their students? I
see it when I do checkouts for pilots who are new to our operation or
request some training or a flight review.
Hopefully this will regenerate some discussion here and maybe save
some lives in the process?
Ol Shy & Bashful - Soaring Buzzard
World Infamous pilot/Instructor

Hi Rocky;
I share your comment about spin training and encourage every pilot,
especially instructors to seek out and become proficient in spins.

That being said, I should add that I have been a cogent advocate of spin
training for many years and in doing so have taken on the powers that be
from the local FBO to the highest levels of the FAA.
I've found that part of the problem is a factor that I for one have to
admit, the proponents (the owners of the fleet aircraft) have a valid
position that has to be addressed when encouraging spin training at the
level of the average FBO. For the specialized operation that has
aircraft and instructors available for this express purpose it's a non
issue, but for the average flight school it's a question that for the
most part is hard to deal with.
The main gripe many FBO's have with spin training is first of all
qualified instructors to do the training, AND another gripe that has to
be addressed.
You can do spin training in the utility category and if all recoveries
are made without over stress, using these airplanes shouldn't be a
problem. You can, for example, use a Cessna 152 all day long for spin
training and have no issues, BUT, when you start extending turns and
botching recoveries, you can easily get into over g situations with
these airplanes.
For the average FBO with a plane on the line for flight instruction,
this is a legitimate beef.
What I'm saying is that I agree on the spin issue, but understand why
many FBO's are reluctant to offer this training. They just can not find
enough instructors who are competent enough to insure that a utility
category aircraft won't be overstressed due to bad recovery technique by
the instructor giving the dual.
My answer to this issue has been the same for many years now. I highly
recommend that ALL pilots seek out and obtain spin training from an
authorized training facility with both aircraft and instructors
qualified to give that training.
CFI candidates especially, should seek out and obtain not only spin
training, but some serious upset and recovery training before becomming
instructors. The difference between an instructor who can do spins and
one who is fully qualified and capable of recovering a student's botched
maneuver WITHOUT OVER STRESSING THE AIRPLANE is a world apart!!!

I honestly don't know if there IS a viable solution for training every
pilot learning to fly in the United States on how to do spins.

The problems involving access to the right aircraft at a decent price,
properly trained instructors, addressing the current FAA regulations
which are totally inadequate addressing this issue at this point in
time, and the ingrained mindset (totally inadequate as far as I'm
concerned)that being able to recover from the stall negates the spin
that serves the FAA, the FBO, and the manufacturer's position rather
than addressing the "properly trained pilot's" position, might very well
be insurmountable for general aviation.

The bottom line on this issue has for the most part already been decided
by the high spin accident rate CAUSED by improperly trained instructors
attempting spin training with students. The accident rate indicates to
the FAA that spin training in general isn't worth the cost. Based on
that logic, I'm afraid little will be done to encourage spin training at
the local level and indeed might very well end up discouraging this
training altogether.

It's a sad picture, but probably not a total loss.
New pilots coming up the ladder will have to be encouraged by those of
us who have seen the need for this training to go get it where it can be
had.
In the end, all we can change is what we CAN change. This is why I spend
as much time on these forums as I do. I assume this is your reason as
well. I just hope all that time doesn't go to waste.
Hopefully, we've managed to reach a few people and make them safer
pilots by passing on the "good word".


--
Dudley Henriques

wrote in message
ps.com...

Are parachutes required for spins in the U.S.?

In the US, chutes are required for spin training that is not a specifically
required part of flight training. So a 'chute was required when I was a student
pilot taking non-required spin training, but not when I was training for my CFI
ticket. I don't really understand the thinking behind that.

Now here's the conundrum:
Inadvertent stall/spins kill as many in Canada as they do in the U.S.
The training doesn't seem to prevent it. ...
Learning spin entry and recovery by rote doesn't increase awareness of the
situations that can bring it
on, and Transport Canada now wants to see spin scenario training.

This sounds like a good idea. In my opinion, it should be done fairly early in
flight training: Not so early as to scare off new students, but early enough to
impress permanantly on fresh minds how much altutude is lost in a spin. You
don't want that to happen in the pattern!

Things like the low-speed skidding turn, departure stall, climbing
turn stalls and accelerated stalls, all the things that lead to a
spin.

Yes!

Vaughn

"Bob Moore" wrote in message
46.128...


In summary, I disagree with you assement that parachutes are required
for spin training with a Flight Instructor.

Yes, I understand that there are some hopeful readings of 91.307 out there.
Until I see something official from the FAA, I subscribe to the plain reading of
the text.

Yes, I do spins and other stuff all the time- there is nothing like going
out and flying acro on a nice summer day. Never, ever gets boring. I also
think it really helps get the feel of a plane. With any practice, there
really should never be anything like an inadvertent spin- the plane should
be telling you when you aren't doing something right prior to the stall. And
once it does stall,keeping the wings level with your feet should help
prevent spin entry.

I am far from an expert acro pilot, but developing a feel for the plane and
what it's going to do are major advantages of acro training.

On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 12:03:52 -0700, Ol Shy & Bashful
wrote in
. com:

If you haven't done any spins lately, why not?

I agree with you about the need for spin training, but there are (at
least) a couple of issues.

1. It's not possible to cage the gyros in most training aircraft.

2. Many aircraft (PA28s come to mind) are not approved for
intentional spins.

As a student, I requested spin training before solo. It caused a bit
of a problem because they had to scare up chutes to stay legal, but they
made it happen. I ain't no stunt pilot, but I have never been afraid of
an intentional stall.


A US CFI providing Spin Training to a student does not have or provide or
wear parachutes.
91.307(d)
Some might argue that a "pre-solo" student is not required to have spin
training, and 91.307(d) only exempts "required training".
BT