Best Overall Motorglider available today?

Honestly no, I have no experience with that specific model.

57 dBa, while not loud, is very clearly audible, and in still, stable air (especially still, humid, stable air) sound carries a very long way.

If electric gliders (and electric tow vehicles) become the norm, then I'm sure infrastructure will be built to accommodate.

I'm not a New Castle member, just their biggest fan. There's power all over the airport, but since it wasn't put there with electric vehicles in mind, it wouldn't take too many before limits of power and accessibility were reached.

T8

On Tuesday, October 13, 2020 at 9:18:20 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Have you listened to one? If it ran after 8 am, would it still be offensive?

You are right that it would not bother people at Ephrata, Hobbs, Parowan, Ely, or Minden, and
most of the places I fly. It's been a long time since I've been to Newcastle, so tell me: is
power available for several gliders to tie down where they could recharge from hangar outlets?
Could they be parked at one end of the tiedowns, far enough away that 57 dba generators would
not annoy people after 7 or 8 am?

Eric
Tango Eight wrote on 10/13/2020 5:14 AM:
It's not about "loud", Eric, it's about "peace and quiet".

On a still morning at New Castle, anyone with decent hearing will hear it at a 1/2 mile and it will not enhance the experience. At someplace like Hobbs or Ephrata, maybe one doesn't care as much.

T8

On Tuesday, October 13, 2020 at 12:00:02 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Tango Eight wrote on 10/12/2020 5:12 PM:
If you think there is such a thing as a quiet generator you are either indulging in wishful thinking at the expense of your neighbors or you need your hearing evaluated, or both. Maybe it doesn't matter at some uninhabitable hellhole of a soaring site, but it would sure kill the ambiance at most of the (beautiful, quiet, wonderfully suitable for tent camping) sites I frequent.

Have you listened to a Honda EU2200i? It's rated at 57dba at full output, which is variously
described as normal conversation or a refrigerator running. If you are sleeping right next to
the glider being charged, it might seem loud (haven't tried it), but a 100' away, probably not.
But, I don't support running them at night, but between 7 am and 10 pm, or similar, so there is
a quiet time at night. Based on my flying, where I typically use the ASH26E engine for just the
launch, a similar electric glider would only need an hour of charging, so easily done in the
morning while preparing for the day's flight.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Monday, 12 October 2020 at 20:40:52 UTC+3, Ramy wrote:
The price tag of close to 200K for a new self launcher does not surprise me as I don’t think you can’t find much cheaper for any new motorglider?
What surprises me is the expectation that the 34 will not perform as well as the top standard class such as LS8 and Discus 2 and is marketed as a club glider. After all the claim of 48:1 glide ratio is as high as you can expect from a non flap ship, which is not bad. So why do you expect it will not perform as well?
I wonder why they don’t offer the same option in the 33?
I would like to hear thoughts on it.
As for why I did not switch to a motorglider myself so far, part of it is enjoying the “pure� and adventure aspect of pure gliders, part is that in the places I fly and with the support I have, pure gliders worked well for me, part is shying away from complexity, maintainace and extra cost. But I am getting older, and electric solution appeal the most to me, but I haven’t found the silver lining I am looking for so far.

Ramy

To be totally honest, pilots who contemplate over performance differences between LS8-18, D2c and AS34 are not going to fly a mile longer or knot faster with any of these types, or with LS4 for that matter. We are talking about gliders that are sold to sunday afternoon pilots doing 99% of the time few hour pleasure flights. Who cares if one of these is 0.001% better and 81..3 knot "speed range" than other?

If you want a glider that goes, you need to look at 18m racers such as V3, JS3 or AS33.

The difference between gliders designed in the last 20 years is quite small.. Some of the difference is explainable by wing loading. Here are the handicaps used in the US for a sample of gliders (in the US, lower numbers are faster):

JS3 - 0.83
ASH31-18 - 0.835
V3 - 0.84
ASG29-18 - 0.845
V2b-18 - 0.85
ASH26 - 0.855
LS6c-18 - 0.868
ASW27 - 0.878
LS8-18. - 0.88
Vb16.6 - 0.883

That means that on an 80 knot average day for the JS3, the ASH26 will do 78, and an LS8-18 75 knots. Put another way in a 4 hours flight the JS3 will arrive 7 minutes ahead of the ASH26 and 14 minutes ahead of the LS8. That is a lot of time in a race, but for pleasure flying nearly nothing. 7 minutes will be lost or gained many times in a 4 hour flight by luck or skill. If the 26 is leaching the JS3 it will be slowly left behind (which may be mentally disheartening, even if the difference is small) but will still be within Flarm range by the end of the day. If the S3 is loaded to 12 lbs/ft the difference is much greater - but primarily due to wing loading, not aerodynamic design. The science was pretty far advanced even 20 years ago. There has been more gained by increasing wing loadings than wing profiles. If you are racing at top levels, or the money is of little consequence to you, then by all means the newest gliders are faster. For the rest of us, hard to find the value proposition.

On Wednesday, October 14, 2020 at 1:02:34 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
On Monday, 12 October 2020 at 20:40:52 UTC+3, Ramy wrote:
The price tag of close to 200K for a new self launcher does not surprise me as I don’t think you can’t find much cheaper for any new motorglider?
What surprises me is the expectation that the 34 will not perform as well as the top standard class such as LS8 and Discus 2 and is marketed as a club glider. After all the claim of 48:1 glide ratio is as high as you can expect from a non flap ship, which is not bad. So why do you expect it will not perform as well?
I wonder why they don’t offer the same option in the 33?
I would like to hear thoughts on it.
As for why I did not switch to a motorglider myself so far, part of it is enjoying the “pure� and adventure aspect of pure gliders, part is that in the places I fly and with the support I have, pure gliders worked well for me, part is shying away from complexity, maintainace and extra cost. But I am getting older, and electric solution appeal the most to me, but I haven’t found the silver lining I am looking for so far..

Ramy
To be totally honest, pilots who contemplate over performance differences between LS8-18, D2c and AS34 are not going to fly a mile longer or knot faster with any of these types, or with LS4 for that matter. We are talking about gliders that are sold to sunday afternoon pilots doing 99% of the time few hour pleasure flights. Who cares if one of these is 0.001% better and 81.3 knot "speed range" than other?

If you want a glider that goes, you need to look at 18m racers such as V3, JS3 or AS33.

The ASH 26E is actually a 27+ year old design, since the first US delivery was in 1994, meaning
the design was completed at least a year earlier. Also 27+ years for the ASW27.

jfitch wrote on 10/14/2020 10:12 AM:
The difference between gliders designed in the last 20 years is quite small.. Some of the difference is explainable by wing loading. Here are the handicaps used in the US for a sample of gliders (in the US, lower numbers are faster):

JS3 - 0.83
ASH31-18 - 0.835
V3 - 0.84
ASG29-18 - 0.845
V2b-18 - 0.85
ASH26 - 0.855
LS6c-18 - 0.868
ASW27 - 0.878
LS8-18. - 0.88
Vb16.6 - 0.883

That means that on an 80 knot average day for the JS3, the ASH26 will do 78, and an LS8-18 75 knots. Put another way in a 4 hours flight the JS3 will arrive 7 minutes ahead of the ASH26 and 14 minutes ahead of the LS8. That is a lot of time in a race, but for pleasure flying nearly nothing. 7 minutes will be lost or gained many times in a 4 hour flight by luck or skill. If the 26 is leaching the JS3 it will be slowly left behind (which may be mentally disheartening, even if the difference is small) but will still be within Flarm range by the end of the day. If the S3 is loaded to 12 lbs/ft the difference is much greater - but primarily due to wing loading, not aerodynamic design. The science was pretty far advanced even 20 years ago. There has been more gained by increasing wing loadings than wing profiles. If you are racing at top levels, or the money is of little consequence to you, then by all means the newest gliders are faster. For the rest of us, hard to find the value proposition.

On Wednesday, October 14, 2020 at 1:02:34 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
On Monday, 12 October 2020 at 20:40:52 UTC+3, Ramy wrote:
The price tag of close to 200K for a new self launcher does not surprise me as I don’t think you can’t find much cheaper for any new motorglider?
What surprises me is the expectation that the 34 will not perform as well as the top standard class such as LS8 and Discus 2 and is marketed as a club glider. After all the claim of 48:1 glide ratio is as high as you can expect from a non flap ship, which is not bad. So why do you expect it will not perform as well?
I wonder why they don’t offer the same option in the 33?
I would like to hear thoughts on it.
As for why I did not switch to a motorglider myself so far, part of it is enjoying the “pure” and adventure aspect of pure gliders, part is that in the places I fly and with the support I have, pure gliders worked well for me, part is shying away from complexity, maintainace and extra cost. But I am getting older, and electric solution appeal the most to me, but I haven’t found the silver lining I am looking for so far..

Ramy
To be totally honest, pilots who contemplate over performance differences between LS8-18, D2c and AS34 are not going to fly a mile longer or knot faster with any of these types, or with LS4 for that matter. We are talking about gliders that are sold to sunday afternoon pilots doing 99% of the time few hour pleasure flights. Who cares if one of these is 0.001% better and 81.3 knot "speed range" than other?

If you want a glider that goes, you need to look at 18m racers such as V3, JS3 or AS33.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Interesting discussion. I recall an anecdote I heard from a EB29E pilot,
she described the evening after flight discussions at a well known
Namibian site.
She said "the glider pilots sat around after dinner and discussed their
flights, the motor glider pilots sat around and discussed engines".
Says it all really!
Dave W



At 17:12 14 October 2020, jfitch wrote:
The difference between gliders designed in the last 20 years is quite
small=
.. Some of the difference is explainable by wing loading. Here are the
handi=
caps used in the US for a sample of gliders (in the US, lower numbers
are
f=
aster):

JS3 - 0.83
ASH31-18 - 0.835
V3 - 0.84
ASG29-18 - 0.845
V2b-18 - 0.85
ASH26 - 0.855
LS6c-18 - 0.868
ASW27 - 0.878
LS8-18. - 0.88
Vb16.6 - 0.883

That means that on an 80 knot average day for the JS3, the ASH26
will do
78=
, and an LS8-18 75 knots. Put another way in a 4 hours flight the JS3
will
=
arrive 7 minutes ahead of the ASH26 and 14 minutes ahead of the
LS8. That
i=
s a lot of time in a race, but for pleasure flying nearly nothing. 7
minute=
s will be lost or gained many times in a 4 hour flight by luck or skill.
If=
the 26 is leaching the JS3 it will be slowly left behind (which may be
men=
tally disheartening, even if the difference is small) but will still be
wit=
hin Flarm range by the end of the day. If the S3 is loaded to 12 lbs/ft
the=
difference is much greater - but primarily due to wing loading, not
aerody=
namic design. The science was pretty far advanced even 20 years
ago. There
=
has been more gained by increasing wing loadings than wing profiles.
If
you=
are racing at top levels, or the money is of little consequence to you,
th=
en by all means the newest gliders are faster. For the rest of us, hard
to
=
find the value proposition.=20

On Wednesday, October 14, 2020 at 1:02:34 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
On Monday, 12 October 2020 at 20:40:52 UTC+3, Ramy wrote:=20
The price tag of close to 200K for a new self launcher does not
surpris=
e me as I don=E2=80=99t think you can=E2=80=99t find much
cheaper for any
n=
ew motorglider?=20
What surprises me is the expectation that the 34 will not perform
as
we=
ll as the top standard class such as LS8 and Discus 2 and is marketed
as a
=
club glider. After all the claim of 48:1 glide ratio is as high as you
can
=
expect from a non flap ship, which is not bad. So why do you expect it
will=
not perform as well?=20
I wonder why they don=E2=80=99t offer the same option in the
33?=20
I would like to hear thoughts on it.=20
As for why I did not switch to a motorglider myself so far, part of
it
=
is enjoying the =E2=80=9Cpure=E2=80=9D and adventure aspect of
pure
gliders=
, part is that in the places I fly and with the support I have, pure
glider=
s worked well for me, part is shying away from complexity,
maintainace and
=
extra cost. But I am getting older, and electric solution appeal the
most
t=
o me, but I haven=E2=80=99t found the silver lining I am looking for
so
far=
..=20
=20
Ramy
To be totally honest, pilots who contemplate over performance
differences=
between LS8-18, D2c and AS34 are not going to fly a mile longer or
knot
fa=
ster with any of these types, or with LS4 for that matter. We are
talking
a=
bout gliders that are sold to sunday afternoon pilots doing 99% of the
time=
few hour pleasure flights. Who cares if one of these is 0.001% better
and
=
81.3 knot "speed range" than other?=20
=20
If you want a glider that goes, you need to look at 18m racers such
as
V3=
, JS3 or AS33.

On Wednesday, 14 October 2020 at 19:15:07 UTC+1, Dave Walsh wrote:
Interesting discussion. I recall an anecdote I heard from a EB29E pilot,
she described the evening after flight discussions at a well known
Namibian site.
She said "the glider pilots sat around after dinner and discussed their
flights, the motor glider pilots sat around and discussed engines".
Says it all really!
Dave W
At 17:12 14 October 2020, jfitch wrote:
The difference between gliders designed in the last 20 years is quite
small=
.. Some of the difference is explainable by wing loading. Here are the
handi=
caps used in the US for a sample of gliders (in the US, lower numbers
are
f=
aster):

JS3 - 0.83
ASH31-18 - 0.835
V3 - 0.84
ASG29-18 - 0.845
V2b-18 - 0.85
ASH26 - 0.855
LS6c-18 - 0.868
ASW27 - 0.878
LS8-18. - 0.88
Vb16.6 - 0.883

That means that on an 80 knot average day for the JS3, the ASH26
will do
78=
, and an LS8-18 75 knots. Put another way in a 4 hours flight the JS3
will
=
arrive 7 minutes ahead of the ASH26 and 14 minutes ahead of the
LS8. That
i=
s a lot of time in a race, but for pleasure flying nearly nothing. 7
minute=
s will be lost or gained many times in a 4 hour flight by luck or skill.
If=
the 26 is leaching the JS3 it will be slowly left behind (which may be
men=
tally disheartening, even if the difference is small) but will still be
wit=
hin Flarm range by the end of the day. If the S3 is loaded to 12 lbs/ft
the=
difference is much greater - but primarily due to wing loading, not
aerody=
namic design. The science was pretty far advanced even 20 years
ago. There
=
has been more gained by increasing wing loadings than wing profiles.
If
you=
are racing at top levels, or the money is of little consequence to you,
th=
en by all means the newest gliders are faster. For the rest of us, hard
to
=
find the value proposition.=20

On Wednesday, October 14, 2020 at 1:02:34 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
On Monday, 12 October 2020 at 20:40:52 UTC+3, Ramy wrote:=20
The price tag of close to 200K for a new self launcher does not
surpris=
e me as I don=E2=80=99t think you can=E2=80=99t find much
cheaper for any
n=
ew motorglider?=20
What surprises me is the expectation that the 34 will not perform
as
we=
ll as the top standard class such as LS8 and Discus 2 and is marketed
as a
=
club glider. After all the claim of 48:1 glide ratio is as high as you
can
=
expect from a non flap ship, which is not bad. So why do you expect it
will=
not perform as well?=20
I wonder why they don=E2=80=99t offer the same option in the
33?=20
I would like to hear thoughts on it.=20
As for why I did not switch to a motorglider myself so far, part of
it
=
is enjoying the =E2=80=9Cpure=E2=80=9D and adventure aspect of
pure
gliders=
, part is that in the places I fly and with the support I have, pure
glider=
s worked well for me, part is shying away from complexity,
maintainace and
=
extra cost. But I am getting older, and electric solution appeal the
most
t=
o me, but I haven=E2=80=99t found the silver lining I am looking for
so
far=
..=20
=20
Ramy
To be totally honest, pilots who contemplate over performance
differences=
between LS8-18, D2c and AS34 are not going to fly a mile longer or
knot
fa=
ster with any of these types, or with LS4 for that matter. We are
talking
a=
bout gliders that are sold to sunday afternoon pilots doing 99% of the
time=
few hour pleasure flights. Who cares if one of these is 0.001% better
and
=
81.3 knot "speed range" than other?=20
=20
If you want a glider that goes, you need to look at 18m racers such
as
V3=
, JS3 or AS33.


Might have been a boring evening - I thought all the gliding in Namibia was with seasonally imported self-launchers!

Maybe it says something about Namibia flying, but it says nothing about the Parowan motorglider
event I've been going to for over 10 years. We discuss the flights, rarely the motors. Ditto
for when I fly at Ely following the Parowan event.

Seriously, the motors work very well most of the time, and there is little reason to discuss
them at dinner! Use it for 5-10 minutes to launch, put it away and fly. There is more
discussion about the towed gliders landing out and needing retrieves than engines: do they need
a towplane, who will drive the trailer to them, etc.

Eric

Dave Walsh wrote on 10/14/2020 11:03 AM:
Interesting discussion. I recall an anecdote I heard from a EB29E pilot,
she described the evening after flight discussions at a well known
Namibian site.
She said "the glider pilots sat around after dinner and discussed their
flights, the motor glider pilots sat around and discussed engines".
Says it all really!
Dave W



At 17:12 14 October 2020, jfitch wrote:
The difference between gliders designed in the last 20 years is quite
small=
.. Some of the difference is explainable by wing loading. Here are the
handi=
caps used in the US for a sample of gliders (in the US, lower numbers
are
f=
aster):

JS3 - 0.83
ASH31-18 - 0.835
V3 - 0.84
ASG29-18 - 0.845
V2b-18 - 0.85
ASH26 - 0.855
LS6c-18 - 0.868
ASW27 - 0.878
LS8-18. - 0.88
Vb16.6 - 0.883

That means that on an 80 knot average day for the JS3, the ASH26
will do
78=
, and an LS8-18 75 knots. Put another way in a 4 hours flight the JS3
will
=
arrive 7 minutes ahead of the ASH26 and 14 minutes ahead of the
LS8. That
i=
s a lot of time in a race, but for pleasure flying nearly nothing. 7
minute=
s will be lost or gained many times in a 4 hour flight by luck or skill.
If=
the 26 is leaching the JS3 it will be slowly left behind (which may be
men=
tally disheartening, even if the difference is small) but will still be
wit=
hin Flarm range by the end of the day. If the S3 is loaded to 12 lbs/ft
the=
difference is much greater - but primarily due to wing loading, not
aerody=
namic design. The science was pretty far advanced even 20 years
ago. There
=
has been more gained by increasing wing loadings than wing profiles.
If
you=
are racing at top levels, or the money is of little consequence to you,
th=
en by all means the newest gliders are faster. For the rest of us, hard
to
=
find the value proposition.=20

On Wednesday, October 14, 2020 at 1:02:34 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
On Monday, 12 October 2020 at 20:40:52 UTC+3, Ramy wrote:=20
The price tag of close to 200K for a new self launcher does not
surpris=
e me as I don=E2=80=99t think you can=E2=80=99t find much
cheaper for any
n=
ew motorglider?=20
What surprises me is the expectation that the 34 will not perform
as
we=
ll as the top standard class such as LS8 and Discus 2 and is marketed
as a
=
club glider. After all the claim of 48:1 glide ratio is as high as you
can
=
expect from a non flap ship, which is not bad. So why do you expect it
will=
not perform as well?=20
I wonder why they don=E2=80=99t offer the same option in the
33?=20
I would like to hear thoughts on it.=20
As for why I did not switch to a motorglider myself so far, part of
it
=
is enjoying the =E2=80=9Cpure=E2=80=9D and adventure aspect of
pure
gliders=
, part is that in the places I fly and with the support I have, pure
glider=
s worked well for me, part is shying away from complexity,
maintainace and
=
extra cost. But I am getting older, and electric solution appeal the
most
t=
o me, but I haven=E2=80=99t found the silver lining I am looking for
so
far=
..=20
=20
Ramy
To be totally honest, pilots who contemplate over performance
differences=
between LS8-18, D2c and AS34 are not going to fly a mile longer or
knot
fa=
ster with any of these types, or with LS4 for that matter. We are
talking
a=
bout gliders that are sold to sunday afternoon pilots doing 99% of the
time=
few hour pleasure flights. Who cares if one of these is 0.001% better
and
=
81.3 knot "speed range" than other?=20
=20
If you want a glider that goes, you need to look at 18m racers such
as
V3=
, JS3 or AS33.




--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

I couldn’t agree less with the notion that you need a top racer to go anywhere. It may be the case in contest racing where every small performance advantage is significant, but the performance difference is insignificant for the rest of cross country flights. You May fly few miles less or few mph slower. I agree it wouldn’t matter for those who fly locally, but a significant number of pilots such as myself don’t fly contests or records but fly aggressive cross country as you can see on OLC. The AS34 should be marketed for this significant segment of soaring pilots, not for clubs and local fliers.

Ramy

On Tuesday, October 13, 2020 at 11:45:48 AM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Tuesday, October 13, 2020 at 10:55:03 AM UTC-4, Craig Reinholt wrote:
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 5:52:22 PM UTC-7, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:
Ya Know what would be / Is the ultimate Great Basin ship IMHO?
The EB 29
Kinda big at a 96' wingspan but the 68/1 LD would be nice.
I was in Ely several years ago when there were two there, one flown by a gent I think named John Bally? and his buddy. I checked those planes out, very well finished. Beautiful.
Those guys said they were very nice to fly.
Actually Bally had the 2 seat EB 28 and took my brother Mike XC in it..
I think Binder has been a leader in suppling other manufactures with complete ICE systems for a long time.
At Moriarity NM this spring Keith Essex said this plane was on his radar as his next ship, after he wore out his JS3.
Any guess's on what these go for all decked out with a metal Cobra?
Nick
T

Nick, Kelvyn Flaval (KF) bought an EB29R this year. It was over $400k. He, along with Mitch Polinsky will be flying them at Ely next season. Sibylle and Ingo Andresen from Germany are Ely regulars and will probably be at Ely too. Ingo flies the 29R. Sibylle flies a 31.

Ingo does not fly the EB29 anymore.
Andrzej, I bought Sybille's ASH 31 recently. She told me she is getting a Ventus 3 with a self-launcher gas engine in Spring of next year.

On Wednesday, October 14, 2020 at 5:51:28 PM UTC-4, Herbert Kilian wrote:
Andrzej, I bought Sybille's ASH 31 recently.

Herbert, welcome to the dark side.
See ya, Dave

PS: Back in the shop tomorrow improving yet another 'interesting' bit of electronics, aaarrrgggg....