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#11
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On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 21:47:43 -0500, Ron Rosenfeld
wrote: However, it is your right to fly any ODP, even if it is not given to you in your clearance. I sure didn't know that. What if the tower says "after takeoff maintain runway heading, climb to 5000" etc. etc. and the ODP has some other sort of departure (e.g. a turn of some kind)? I'm relatively new to this but I thought I had to follow what the tower says in the clearance, until handed off to Departure... Dave Blevins |
#12
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I thought I had to follow what the tower says in the clearance,
until handed off to Departure... You should be skeptical about following instructions from a non-radar tower in poor visibility conditions. Tower guys have told me that they're not going to issue instructions contrary to the DP unless good visibility conditions prevail or the pilot assures them that he can maintain his own obstacle clearance. |
#13
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On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 22:14:53 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:
So, in theory, until the time I was actually given a vector, I would have been within my rights to turn left to 040 as soon as I felt it was safe? That's how I interpret the rules. Although there may be some local procedures to follow, such as not turning until at the airport boundary, or at a certain altitude, etc. Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#14
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On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 03:39:01 GMT, Greg Esres wrote:
However, it is your right to fly any ODP, even if it is not given to you in your clearance. Yeah, but you'd better coordinate that with ATC. The AIM doesn't make that clear. It seems clear to me: 5-2-6... "ODP's are recommended for obstruction clearance and may be flown *without ATC clearance* unless an alternate departure procedure (SID or radar vector) has been specifically assigned by ATC." (emphasis mine) Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#15
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#16
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#17
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Well, only a reading of the ATC tapes would tell you whether the departure
a issue was in your clearance. If it was not, and it is the "100% drill" to get that departure, you should have sought clarification because you sensed a crack that you were possibly going to fall through. As to your distinction between SIDs and DPs, there isn't any in this country, at least not until they sign out a policy reinstating SIDs. There are Obstacle DPs and there are ATC DPs. Of course, some of the charts are old so they state "SID" on them. No one said it would be easy. ;-) Roy Smith wrote: Had a strange thing happen to me today. I filed IFR HPN - HFD (White Plains NY to Hartford CT). The route part of my clearance came back "radar vectors Carmel[VOR], V1, Hartford[VOR], Direct". Usually out of HPN I would expect to get the Westchester-1 departure, but it wasn't in my clearance, and I when I read back the clearance without it, I got "readback correct". Seemed a little strange, but I went with the flow (I should have asked for clarification, I'm not sure why I didn't). The turn in the SID took us away from our first fix, so I guess I figured they were just doing us a favor or something with a shorter routing. We took off and I started climbing straight out. The HPN-1 has an almost 180-degree turn almost immediately. The guy I was with asked me why I wasn't making the turn and I said we weren't on the SID. I asked tower and they said I should be on the SID. So, what went wrong? Did I goof? Am I supposed to fly the SID (not a DP) even though it's not in the clearance? Is it more likely that it was in the clearance but I just didn't hear it and the controller didn't notice that it wasn't in the readback? |
#18
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Check the latest AIM...SIDs are back.
Bob Gardner wrote in message ... Well, only a reading of the ATC tapes would tell you whether the departure a issue was in your clearance. If it was not, and it is the "100% drill" to get that departure, you should have sought clarification because you sensed a crack that you were possibly going to fall through. As to your distinction between SIDs and DPs, there isn't any in this country, at least not until they sign out a policy reinstating SIDs. There are Obstacle DPs and there are ATC DPs. Of course, some of the charts are old so they state "SID" on them. No one said it would be easy. ;-) Roy Smith wrote: Had a strange thing happen to me today. I filed IFR HPN - HFD (White Plains NY to Hartford CT). The route part of my clearance came back "radar vectors Carmel[VOR], V1, Hartford[VOR], Direct". Usually out of HPN I would expect to get the Westchester-1 departure, but it wasn't in my clearance, and I when I read back the clearance without it, I got "readback correct". Seemed a little strange, but I went with the flow (I should have asked for clarification, I'm not sure why I didn't). The turn in the SID took us away from our first fix, so I guess I figured they were just doing us a favor or something with a shorter routing. We took off and I started climbing straight out. The HPN-1 has an almost 180-degree turn almost immediately. The guy I was with asked me why I wasn't making the turn and I said we weren't on the SID. I asked tower and they said I should be on the SID. So, what went wrong? Did I goof? Am I supposed to fly the SID (not a DP) even though it's not in the clearance? Is it more likely that it was in the clearance but I just didn't hear it and the controller didn't notice that it wasn't in the readback? |
#19
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may be flown *without ATC clearance*
I said coordination, not clearance. If the ODP says go to a fix, and climb in a holding pattern, and Center already has someone holding there, then you've created a problem. |
#20
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you receive a vector from ATC, you are obligated to follow it (or
question it if you feel it is unsafe What tower would give you is not a vector; it's a heading. |
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