Blackbird v. Mig-25

From: Venik

I am talking about the role of the MiG-25/31 in the decision to withdraw
the SR-71 from service.

And you have yet to provide the name of a single verifiable source outside the
Soviet Union.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"Venik" wrote
B2431 wrote:

Now notice how you changed from MiG-37 to MiG25 to avoid answering
my question.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

No books have been written about the MiG-37 apart from the Italeri
manual for their plastic model :-) But if you mean MiG-31, than, as you
(probably don't) know, it's original designation during development was
MiG-25MP (Ye-155MP).

And a whole book that was written outside the fUSSR telling how the
MiG-25MP/Ye-155MP/MiG-31 impacted US planning was?

Is this a test? Ooh, I like tests! I suggest reading something about
the development of the F-14, as well as the Israeli-Arab conflicts which
saw the use of MiG-25s. I promise you will find no shortage of examples
of how MiG-25 affeted the US planning.

Liking and doing well on test are not the same thing.

Any argument with you seems to inevitably lead to you trying to shift
the discussion away from the SR-71 and to the Iran-Iraq war. I
understand that this is one area that you probably read something about,
but it's just not relevant in this situation. You are asking me about
dates and pilots of the lost Iraqi MiG-25s - what does this have
anything to do with the retirement of the SR-71? Your questions are
totally irrelevant and so are your arguments. Your claims of Iraqi
MiG-25 are simply absurd for one simple reason: Iraq never so many
Foxbats to begin with. It's a well-known fact that Iraq only purchased
20 of these aircraft. You talk about some documents stating that Iraq
had 30 MiG-25s left. Let's see them. Where are the photos of these MiGs?
Surely by now the US troops found all of them.

--
Regards,

Venik

Visit my site: http://www.aeronautics.ru
If you need to e-mail me, please use the following subject line:
?Subject=Newsgr0ups_resp0 nse

"Venik" wrote in message
...
Any argument with you seems to inevitably lead to you trying to shift
the discussion away from the SR-71 and to the Iran-Iraq war. I
understand that this is one area that you probably read something about,
but it's just not relevant in this situation. You are asking me about
dates and pilots of the lost Iraqi MiG-25s - what does this have
anything to do with the retirement of the SR-71?

For third time. this has to do with the cancellation of MiG-25 development,
caused due to the loss of Soviet-flown MiG-25BMs being shot down over Iran
in November 1987. Repeat: a loss of a Soviet-flown MiG-25BM. In combat.
Against Iranian F-14s. Something that never happened to any USAF SR-71.

This means that it was the Soviets who have changed their planing and
behaviour in regards of MiG-25s due to F-14s. It was not so that the USA
have changed their planing and behaviour in regards of SR-71s because of
MiG-25s or MiG-31s - as you explained above but are completely unable to
provide any kind of evidence for. Capice?

Namely, Venik, you stated:

There've been entire books written on the impact of the MiG-31 on the US
planning.

And, consequently, I'm asking now for the 5th time: can you finally say what
books? Can you say the title, author, publisher, ISBN of such books?

Your questions are
totally irrelevant and so are your arguments.

Why are my questions irrelevant? You said there are "entire books written on
the impact of the MiG-31 on the US planning. I'm asking you: which books?

Can you name even a single one or not?

Your claims of Iraqi
MiG-25 are simply absurd for one simple reason: Iraq never so many
Foxbats to begin with. It's a well-known fact that Iraq only purchased
20 of these aircraft.

Where is this a "well-known fact"? What is your source for this? Can you
name a book, article, official document that would confirm your figures?

Then, you were explaining about how many IrAF MiG-25s were lost in 1980s: 3.
And, you said this is "well documented". I said OK. No problem. Just, can
you provide evidence of how "well documented" these losses are? If they are
so "well documented", then explain me when was that one lost to an Iranian
SAM and where? How about date and place? Who was the pilot? From which unit
was he? Can you provide a picture of the plane or wreckage? Where and when
was one lost "due to uncontained engine failure"? Who was the pilot of that
plane? Can you provide a picture of that plane or its wreckage?Where and
when was "another one lost on landing during a test flight"?

You talk about some documents stating that Iraq
had 30 MiG-25s left. Let's see them.

Following is the excerpt from the USN document titled "Speartip 014-90" the
title-page and the relevant page I have just e-mailed to you, discussing the
number of MiG-25PDs - repeat: MiG-25PDs (i.e. if you can, note the stress on
INTERCEPTORS, not on a combination of recce and interceptor variants) - as
available in 1991:
_
4. (S/NF/WN) - AIRCRAFT-SPECIFIC ISSUES. THOUGH THE IRAQI AIR FORCE IS LARGE
IN NUMERS, ITS FRENCH AND SOVIET BUILT FIGHTER/INTERCEPTOR FORCE COMPRISES
LESS THAN HALF THIS SUM. THIS FORCE IS BROKE DOWN INTO ALL-WX/VFR CAPABLE
AIRCRAFT AS FOLLOWS:
....
MiG-25 FOXBAT A/E 22
....

Speartip 014-90 was an official document, issued to brief USN commanders
going to a war against Iraq. So, except you're now going to explain us that
ONI was _lying_ to its own people, there were obviously at least 22
MiG-25PD(e)/PDS' - i.e. INTERCEPTOR FOXBATS - in service with the IrAF in
1991. That's a figure that is not including the number of
MiG-25R/RB/BT/RBSHs and MiG-25PUs supplied to Iraq.

Now, you stated above that Iraq "only purchased 20 of these aircraft".
Specifically, you stated that (citate from one of your posts above), "It's a
well-documented fact that Iraq acquired only 12 MiG-25PDs". How do you
explain this discrepancy?

How comes there is a disparity in the figures you provide and what the US
Navy Intelligence was explaining to USN pilots going to a war? Would you
perhaps like to explain us that the ONI was babbling nosence and its
arguments were "irrelevant"?

Oh, and BTW, can you provide any kind of document that would confirm your
statement that the Soviets have supplied only 20 Foxbats of all versions to
Iraq?

Where are the photos of these MiGs?
Surely by now the US troops found all of them.

This was the worst question you could have asked, then there are meanwhile
really a lot of photos of Iraqi MiG-25s found and captured last year. In
fact, the US DoD and private websites of US vets who were in Iraq last and
this year have so far released photographs of no less but 15 different
MiG-25PD(e)/PDS' found in Iraq last year. These are obviously the survivors
of the 22 mentioned in the Speartip 014-90. To make matters really bitter
for you, Venik, however, there are also plenty of photos of Iraqi
MiG-25R/RBs and MiG-25PUs, including:

MiG-25R/RB etc.
- 25105
- 25106
- 25107
- 25108

MiG-25PU
- 25xxx (the one photographed with Australian SAS)

So, if you now calculate what the Speartip above mentioned, namely that
there were 22 MiG-25PD(e) and MiG-25PDS in Iraq in 1991, and add the
MiG-25R/RBs and PUs the serials of which I mentioned above, and ignore all
the Foxbats destroyed on the ground in 1991 and 2003, as well as those shot
down in air combats in 1991 and 1992, as well as the fact that the serials
of examples captured in Iraq last year obviously indicate that there were
even more R/RBs in Iraq, you come out with a total of (at least) 27 MiG-25s
of all versions in Iraq in 1991.

Remember: You said that "it's a well-known fact that Iraq only purchased 20
of these aircraft".

Photographic and intelligence documentation indicate there were at least 27
of Foxbats in Iraq in 1991, and this figure excludes three examples shot
down in air combats in 1991 and 1992, and two destroyed on the ground in
1991. Plus, this figure excludes the three examples you say were lost during
the war with Iran.

With other words, Venik, this would mean that Iraq purchased (at least) 35
MiG-25s, and that your data is completely wrong. How do you explain this?


BTW, your account on unaswered questions is permanently increasing.
Meanwhile, it looks as follows:

- I asked why don't you explain about the impact of (extremely negative)
experiences from the testing of Soviet equipment in Iran-Iraq War, which was
_indeed_ highly influential for (the end of) development of MiG-25?

- I asked, could you now explain us how many SR-71s were shot down in
something like 4.000 SAM-firings against them?

- If there is no "verifiable" MiG-25-kill scored by IRIAF F-14s against IrAF
and Soviet MiG-25s during that war, then, please be so kind to explain:
- why are there pictures of MiG-25-wreckage (like on p.64 of "Iranian F-14
Units in Combat", just for example)?
- why are there ex-IrAF MiG-25 pilots who confirm a loss of at least two
dozens of Iraqi and Soviet Foxbats to Iranian F-14s?
- why do the US intel documents one can get via FOIA procedures confirming
Iranian and Iraqi documents, pilot- and eyewitness-accounts?

I told you I have no problem with your explaining my books for "lots of
baloney", nor stating I'm "thinking stuff up". But, you still have not
answered what is the "evidence" for all these "successful" interceptions of
SR-71s by Soviet fighters you're talking about (see your previous posts in
this thread)? Can you provide any gun-camera pictures or radar bands, or
point at any kind of a source that could?

- Why do the US and Soviet documents agree with each other that over 60
MiG-25s were delivered to Iraq between 1980 and 1989, but barely 30 remained
operational by 1991?

- Can you name a single book that would explain the impact of MiG-31 on the
US planning?

- Would you be so kind to tell us why were all the orders for IFR-equipped
MiG-25s for Libya, Syria and Iraq cancelled in late 1987/1988?

You furthermore stated,
And, of
course, three Iraqi MiG-25s were lost during the PGW - two P-types were
downed by a pair of F-15Cs on the 19th and one more - by a pair of F-16s
on the 25th.

In response to which I asked, which IrAF MiG-25s were shot down by F-16s in
1991? Which F-16-pilots scored these kills and with which weapons?


Finally, are you able to offer a reasonable answer to even a single one of
these questions, or do you prefer to show us how much you like to "think
stuffs up" by ignoring them?

--


Tom Cooper
Freelance Aviation Journalist & Historian
Vienna, Austria

*************************************************

Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php

Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S7875

Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S6585

African MiGs
http://www.acig.org/afmig/

Arab MiG-19 & MiG-21 Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...=S6550~ser=COM

*************************************************

Mr. Cooper, it seems you are suggesting that the former USSR fired some
4,000 SAMs against SR-71. Yet, SR-71 was "intercepted" with Swedish JA-37
(or so they say). I don't know, but if I were a Soviet PVO commander in
chief in that time, I would be p*ssed off big time!

Now, I know that you have a lot of good information, but being an aircraft
"fan" I prefer some information over "I dare you, Venik". More like
"Vladimir Malukh" first (or good second-hand) stuff. And no, I don't believe
that SR-71 was withdrawn because of MiG-31. Also, to be thruthful, MiG-31
was tested under a name MiG-25MP and further developed into MiG-31BM...

P.S. what the heck were MiG-25s doing at low-level to be shot by F-5s!? At
that altitude their performance is such they well might have plunged
themselves into ground!

Nele

NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA

In article ,
"Nele VII" wrote:

P.S. what the heck were MiG-25s doing at low-level to be shot by F-5s!?

Letting down for landing, likely being short of fuel.

Sort of like Me-262s being bounced by Typhoons and P-51s.

"Nele VII" wrote in message
...
Mr. Cooper, it seems you are suggesting that the former USSR fired some
4,000 SAMs against SR-71. Yet, SR-71 was "intercepted" with Swedish JA-37
(or so they say). I don't know, but if I were a Soviet PVO commander in
chief in that time, I would be p*ssed off big time!

Well, that's the figure given by Robert J. Gilliland, former SR-71-test
pilot, in an interview published by Warren E. Thompson in Air Enthusiast
Sept/Oct 2004. Perhaps my memory is not the best, but I think I've read a
figure of over 5.000 SAM-firings somewhere else before (not only over the
USSR, but also Cuba, North Korea and some other places).

Re. interceptions by Swedish JA-37s: perhaps they did it, perhaps not, I
don't know. But, what I actually find funny in this exchange with Venik is
the fact that his only source about MiG-25/31s is so obviously Y. Gordon's
book published by Aerofax (which in turn strongly resembles the book "MiG-25
i Modifikaciy", by G. Dmitriev, S. Sergin, and S. Popsuevich, published by
Arhiv-Press, in Kiev, 1995, and some other earlier Russian publications).
Consequently, Venik can't know about such examples like an ex-Soviet
MiG-31-crew that indeed took several photographs of an SR-71 they
intercepted somewhere near Kamchatka. Of course, the SR-71 was still almost
40.000ft higher and far much faster underway than they were, and they've
seen it only for few seconds - but they photographed it (sadly, they are
also demanding a pretty horrendous sum for these shots).

Now, I know that you have a lot of good information, but being an aircraft
"fan" I prefer some information over "I dare you, Venik". More like
"Vladimir Malukh" first (or good second-hand) stuff.

Sadly, you can't talk with Venik in a very reasonable way. Even when TJ got
him so obviously with his pants down (remember the story about a USAF B-52
"shot down" over Yugoslavia) he'll avoid and ignore all the facts put up
against him like they were never presented in the public.

And no, I don't believe
that SR-71 was withdrawn because of MiG-31. Also, to be thruthful, MiG-31
was tested under a name MiG-25MP and further developed into MiG-31BM...

IMHO, there is an interesting parallel in combat deployment of MiG-25s and
SR-71s, then both types were active over Iran during 1987. In that year at
least two Foxbats were shot down by IRIAF F-14s, including the Soviet-flown
MiG-25BM that got caught by AIM-54A fired in HOJ-mode during an attack
against Mehrabad AB. The SR-71s, involved in Op Eager Glacier, were never
even fired at by Iranians. Black Birds were not retired because of this
experience, but in the weeks after the BM was splashed the Iraqi, Libyan and
Syrian air forces have all cancelled their orders for MiG-25PDZ and
MiG-25RBV, instead going for Su-24MKs.

P.S. what the heck were MiG-25s doing at low-level to be shot by F-5s!? At
that altitude their performance is such they well might have plunged
themselves into ground!

One, a MiG-25RB shot down in 1983, was previously damaged by AIM-54 while
attempting to attack Tehran and underway back towards Iraq at low speed and
level; it got intercepted by an F-5E that was underway on a CAS-sortie
against target in Suleimanyah area and blasted away by two AIM-9Ps. The
other, a MiG-25PD(e) shot down in 1986, was flown by the leading Iraqi "ace"
of that war (Mohammad "Sky Falcon" Rayyan, a personal favourite of Saddam
Hussein), who obviously got pretty arrogant after scoring two kills against
IRIAF fighters in the days befo he was cruising at something like Mach 1
and 25.000ft; the F-5E approached - almost running itself out of fuel in the
process - from behind with radar on "stand by", got a missile failure and
thus attacked with 20mm cannons, spending all ammo in two long bursts - but
setting the right wing afire. The Foxbat came away, but only for few
minutes: it crashed somewhere in the northern Howeizeh Marshes; the Iraqis
were searching for it for three days - without success.

In total, obviously in order to increase their range, the Foxbats were
cruising at speeds around Mach 1 - Mach 1.9 during that war: Iran is quite a
large country. Only once closer to a target, or when threatened by Iranian
interceptors, would they accelerate to more than Mach 2.

--


Tom Cooper
Freelance Aviation Journalist & Historian
Vienna, Austria

*************************************************

Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php

Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S7875

Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S6585

African MiGs
http://www.acig.org/afmig/

Arab MiG-19 & MiG-21 Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...=S6550~ser=COM

*************************************************

Tom Cooper
in the weeks after the BM was splashed the Iraqi, Libyan and
Syrian air forces have all cancelled their orders for MiG-25PDZ
and MiG-25RBV, instead going for Su-24MKs.

I find this a bit strange, perhaps you could elaborate a bit?

Su-24 and MiG-25 seem like very different type of aircraft to me.
25P-series being interceptors and 25RB-series being hihg-altitude
recce-bombers. Su-24, on the other hand, excels in the low-level
strike/bomber role (eg the M-series), also having tac recce and EW
versions.

In particular, I can't imagine that someone would purchase Su-24's for
the interceptor role, ie instead of MiG-25PDZ. But Tom seems to imply
this above, and this I find strange.

Nevertheless, I find Tom's comments on the Iran-Iraq war highly
interesting (I guess I should buy his book... .

It seems that F-14 did influence the design of MiG-31 quite a bit,
and it'd be very interesting to hear comments on how the Soviet
experience with Iranian Tomcats affected the development of MiG-31.
Otoh, the primary roles of 31 and 14 are rather different, fleet
defence vs homeland air defence (against cruise missiles in
particular).

"M" *@*.* wrote in message
...
Tom Cooper
in the weeks after the BM was splashed the Iraqi, Libyan and
Syrian air forces have all cancelled their orders for MiG-25PDZ
and MiG-25RBV, instead going for Su-24MKs.

I find this a bit strange, perhaps you could elaborate a bit?

Su-24 and MiG-25 seem like very different type of aircraft to me.
25P-series being interceptors and 25RB-series being hihg-altitude
recce-bombers. Su-24, on the other hand, excels in the low-level
strike/bomber role (eg the M-series), also having tac recce and EW
versions.

No problem.

You need to see the situation from Arab standpoint. The matter was such that
already since mid-1970s Iraq and Libya were pushing Moscow to deliver a
bomber that could fly from Iraq (or Libya), bomb Israel, and continue
towards Libya (or Iraq), doing this at high speed and least possible danger
for itself. Theoretically, the idea was not bad, however: Israel is very
narrow on west-east axis, so a Tu-22B making a supersonic dash would give
the Israelis a very small chance of interception. The Soviets, however,
reacted by delivering Tu-22Bs, which were a nightmare to maintain and fly,
and armed only with "iron" bombs: IrAF and LARAF needed years to get them
into working condition, and never became capable to operate them completely
independent from Soviet help. So, although the type saw quite some use
against Iran and in Chad Arabs were soon demanding something else.

Eventually, the negative experiences with Tu-22Bs in war against Iran (at
least six were shot down by 1984), and the poor state of Soviet economy,
brought Moscow to the idea of supplying Su-24s instead. The first examples
of this version were shown to the Syrians already in 1986. The Syrians,
however, were more satisfied with MiG-25, then - compared to F-15s and
F-16s - it was offering at least the advantage of speed, aside the fact that
they already operated the type. The same was the case also with Libyan and
Iraqi air forces (and Algerians, which operate MiG-25s but also became the
fourth Su-24-customer). So, instead of developing a completely new variant
of Su-24, the idea was born to equip MiG-25s with IFR-probes and more
advanced weapons - some of which was already tested for the MiG-25BM
project. Given their increased endurance such Foxbats could bomb Israel (or
any other place) while operating at very high levels and speeds, and
dropping their weapons from outside the range of most of the Israeli air
defences.

However, in 1986 the first Soviet-flown MiG-25BM was shot down over Iran.
Several Foxbats were already shot down or damaged in 1981, 1982 and 1983,
but such cases were considered as "accidents" due to pure Iraqi and Soviet
arogance. Well, not only their: see in any book or article about Iranian
F-14s what is being said about their capability to utilize AIM-54s in
combat...

Then, in the following year additional similar cases followed, culminating
with the loss of another BM in November 1987, and at least four RBs in
winter and spring of 1988. Except for a single MiG-25RB shot down over
Esfahan by IRIAF MIM-23Bs (and this is the one mentioned in Gordon's book,
and also the example on which Venik is so much hanging - solely because this
was a widely publicised affair), all the others were shot down by
F-14/AIM-54 combo. Upon hearing about this, and concluding that MiG-25s were
previously also shot down by Israeli F-15s, the Arabs cancelled all the
orders for IFR-equipped MiG-25s, turning for Su-24 instead, and hoping that
something that could fly low and haul more ordnance over a longer range
would function better than Foxbats. In 1988 Moscow consequently ordered all
the further development work on MiG-25s to be cancelled, and the Su-24MK
became a reality.

In particular, I can't imagine that someone would purchase Su-24's for
the interceptor role, ie instead of MiG-25PDZ. But Tom seems to imply
this above, and this I find strange.

I think you might have misinterpreted me he it was certainly not my
intention to explain that the Su-24 would've replaced MiG-25 in interceptor
role. Of course, the MiG-25 and Su-24 are completely different. As you
observed, one is designed for high-speed/high level, other for low level
opertions. But, the intention was not to replace PD(e)/PDS' by Su-24. The
main point of the IFR-equipped Foxbat development was to get a strike
fighter with IFR-capability. PDZ was actually an idea that came out of
necessity to develop a BM that wouldn't have to haul the huge 5.000l drop
tank, but as such a PDZ was only used for testing. IFR-equipped RBs were the
major idea - not the other way around, as explained by Gordon. That was OK
with Arabs, however, then their main interest was to get an IFR-equipped
strike-variant. If the Soviets would've then also equipped Arab PD(e)/PDS'
with IFR-probes I don't know, but surely the Arabs could have found this a
"nice to have" idea.

Once the IFR-equipped Foxbats were cancelled the Su-24 was added as
fighter-bomber in IrAF, SyAAF, LARAF and QJJ, relegating local MiG-25RBs to
pure recce tasks. MiG-25PD(e)/PDS' remained main interceptors of all of
these air forces.

It seems that F-14 did influence the design of MiG-31 quite a bit,
and it'd be very interesting to hear comments on how the Soviet
experience with Iranian Tomcats affected the development of MiG-31.

That's what I'm trying to get in the moment. For the time being the sole
ex-Soviet Foxbat-pilot that was in Iraq in 1987 I've found so far, insists
that the BM in question was lost in an "accident". He wouldn't negate that
the MiG-25-development was subsequently cancelled, but also he woudn't
accept that either the BM downed in 1986 or the one shot down in 1987 was
hit by AIM-54s even after being confronted with materials from two
independent sources: just like most of the West (especially the USA), the
Soviets/Russians think the Iranian F-14s were "dead". From what I've heard,
however, the USAF was monitoring that deployment very carefully, and also
all the three missions flown by BMs against Mehrabad in November 1987. I've
found a USAFIA document confirming a loss of a BM (to IRIAF F-14s) over Iran
in Nov 1987, and indicating that there are sat photos of the wreckage. So, I
guess a FOIA inquiry or two more will be needed to get the final result. It
just takes awfull a lot of time to unearth all of this...


BTW, if some self-advertising is permitted: Venik said he read one of my
books (he wouldn't say which), and this was a "baloney". Here a review from
somebody who teaches War Studies on Royal Military College, in Canada:
http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/engr...o3/book7_e.asp

--


Tom Cooper
Freelance Aviation Journalist & Historian
Vienna, Austria

*************************************************

Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php

Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S7875

Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S6585

African MiGs
http://www.acig.org/afmig/

Arab MiG-19 & MiG-21 Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...=S6550~ser=COM

*************************************************

Tom Cooper wrote:

BTW, if some self-advertising is permitted: Venik said he read one of my
books (he wouldn't say which), and this was a "baloney". Here a review from
somebody who teaches War Studies on Royal Military College, in Canada:
http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/engr...o3/book7_e.asp

I dare say Sean Mahoney is arms length enough. From his _War Without
Battles_ about the Canadian army in Germany with NATO, I'd say he's a
competent historian, just not that great at narrative.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)