The battle for Arlington Airport begins?

On one side of the ring: Arlington Municipal and it's associated
community:..For those of you unfamiliar with Arlington Municipal Airport in
Washington state, it is home of the third largest fly-in in the country (run
by the EAA) and the center of general aviation and experimental aircraft in
the state of Washington and, arguably, the Pacific Northwest.

On the other side of the ring: Nascar, International Speedway Corp, and
associated county, state and city political leaders. They are seeking to
install a large 30,000+ seat racetrack within 45 minutes of the Seattle
area. Snohomish county and the two adjacent cities near the airport are
recommending 3 sites, all roughly within 2 miles of the airport. There are
only 2 or 3 counties which meet the base location criteria, so our local
locations don't have a lot of competition.

The associated TFRs that come part and parcel with such a facility would
shut down Arlington for any motor sports event and probably for any other
use due to seating capacity. You can be sure "other" events will be
frequent so ISC can recoup their investment in the facility. I don't have
data to back any of this up right now, but during the intial salvos of this
conflict at an airport commision meeting tonight, someone mentioned an
airport in the Arizona area that is shut down almost 200 days a year due to
a large venue near it. Even IFR traffic is at the whim of the operating
agency which can choose to disallow overflight. Nascar and the ISC probably
will not find much concern over any of this as their pilots and aircraft get
waivers for any of their events while we would be stuck watching them fly
from the ground.

We all know the FAA has no authority over the airpsace anymore, TSA and
Homeland security run the show and don't answer to anyone. Should another
terrorist event occur, related to GA or otherwise, all bets are off on what
would happen around such facilities. They make the rules as they go and
once the facility is present, it is there to stay with any associated
restrictions, current or yet to exist.

The city and county can't be expected to support the airport, the new
track is a political feather in their cap and money in the government
coffers. Unfortunately, I can't say I don't see their side of the equation
either. It's just too bad they can't site it elsewhere. My hope is that
this fight becomes an exception to the sad disintegration of GA like those
poor airports on the east coast and Megis.

AOPA and the EAA are supposedly working the problem, but I must say this
first public forum has left me with a very sour feeling in my stomach. My
hope is that others read this and look at the issue and maybe someday,
somewhere, someone who has real influence over these decisions will realize
the load they are being fed by the cities and county and that they really
DON'T have the local public support for such a facility and the crippling
impact it would have on our airport. I believe Nascar said they would not
site a facility where it is not wanted during deliberations with the state
legislature. It remains to be seen if that is truly the case and whether
they meant it was wanted by the local populace or by the local government.

If nothing else, wish us luck, we're going to need it...

Paul Adriance

Paul,

In terms of mixed emotions (for me...) this may just be the ultimate case of
"My Mother In Law just went over a cliff in my new Porsche..."

I'm a freelance Sports TV Technician AND a very, very new student pilot
(4.5Hrs)

I happen to be a member of the NASCAR on FOX TV Crew. Moreover, I'm also a
resident of the metro Phoenix area and I often work at the sports venues
here as well.

Please allow me to ask some questions of both you and the group.


"Paul Adriance" wrote in message
hlink.net...
On one side of the ring: Arlington Municipal and it's associated
community:..For those of you unfamiliar with Arlington Municipal Airport
in
Washington state, it is home of the third largest fly-in in the country
(run
by the EAA) and the center of general aviation and experimental aircraft
in
the state of Washington and, arguably, the Pacific Northwest.

On the other side of the ring: Nascar, International Speedway Corp,
and
associated county, state and city political leaders. They are seeking to
install a large 30,000+ seat racetrack within 45 minutes of the Seattle
area. Snohomish county and the two adjacent cities near the airport are
recommending 3 sites, all roughly within 2 miles of the airport. There
are
only 2 or 3 counties which meet the base location criteria, so our local
locations don't have a lot of competition.

The associated TFRs that come part and parcel with such a facility would
shut down Arlington for any motor sports event and probably for any other
use due to seating capacity.

Is a capacity of 30,000+ the key to the creation of a TFR? A Nextel Cup
worthy racetrack would be more along the lines of 130,000+ in terms of
capacity.

Of how large a diameter would such a TFR be?

I ask this because (at least as far as commercial air traffic goes) the
sports arenas/stadiums near KPHX (Sky Harbor) seem to be fair game for
flying right past.
Sun Devil Stadium in Tempe (home to the pathetic NFL Cardinals) is just
barely south of the extended centerline to the east of Sky Harbor Airport
and both the baseball stadium and the basketball arena are just north of the
extended centerline to the west. If there are TFRs over these locations,
they don't seem to have much of an effect on aviation. At least not
commercial aviation, but some say that Sky Harbor is a very GA UN-friendly
airport to begin with so it may be a moot point as regards GA.

In fact, we often look for America West a/c flying past the open roof of
Bank One Ballpark (BOB) in order to superimpose AmWest sponsorship messages
as they fly by. We also look forward to the nightly British Airways 777
that roars right over us on their non-stop to Heathrow.

Are commercial carriers exempt from TFRs around sporting events?

Or are only certain events (of national significance) subject to TFRs
(Superbowls, NASCAR Races, World Series, College Bowl Games, etc...)


You can be sure "other" events will be frequent so ISC can recoup their
investment in the facility. I don't have data to back any of this up right
now, but during the intial salvos of this conflict at an airport commision
meeting tonight, someone mentioned an airport in the Arizona area that is
shut down almost 200 days a year due to a large venue near it.

Seriously? I'm not aware of where that would be. Like I said, flights into
and out of Sky Harbor pass right next to over 130,000 potenital sporting
event attendees and I've never noticed a reduction in traffic when a game is
in progress at any of them.


Even IFR traffic is at the whim of the operating agency which can choose
to disallow overflight. Nascar and the ISC probably will not find much
concern over any of this as their pilots and aircraft get waivers for any
of their events while we would be stuck watching them fly from the ground.


They probably will want to attract "touring" series to race on Friday and/or
Saturday nights. They'd be lucky to draw much of a crowd for these races
however. Do there have to be 30,000+ live bodies actually at the event to
warrant a TFR? A NASCAR Nextel Cup weekend is only four days (when the
track is actually "hot" and being used.) Touring series race nights are
usually one and done.

FWIW, GA certainly has a friend in race team owner/P51 pilot Jack Roush (he
of the ultralight accident and subsequent miraculous rescue/recovery
fame...) Driver Rusty Wallace is also a pilot as is Dale Jarrett ...
perhaps a letter writing campaign to these and other Owner/Driver-Pilots
might get a positive response?


We all know the FAA has no authority over the airpsace anymore, TSA and
Homeland security run the show and don't answer to anyone. Should another
terrorist event occur, related to GA or otherwise, all bets are off on
what would happen around such facilities. They make the rules as they go
and
once the facility is present, it is there to stay with any associated
restrictions, current or yet to exist.

The city and county can't be expected to support the airport, the new track
is a political feather in their cap and money in the government
coffers. Unfortunately, I can't say I don't see their side of the
equation either. It's just too bad they can't site it elsewhere. My
hope is that
this fight becomes an exception to the sad disintegration of GA like those
poor airports on the east coast and Megis.

AOPA and the EAA are supposedly working the problem, but I must say this
first public forum has left me with a very sour feeling in my stomach. My
hope is that others read this and look at the issue and maybe someday,
somewhere, someone who has real influence over these decisions will realize
the load they are being fed by the cities and county and that they really
DON'T have the local public support for such a facility and the crippling
impact it would have on our airport.


I'm afraid you are facing the 400Lb Gorilla of sports series. The amount of
revenue generated by a NASCAR weekend is mind boggling and I'm sure all
those dollar signs can have a blinding effect.


I believe Nascar said they would not site a facility where it is not wanted
during deliberations with the state legislature. It remains to be seen if
that is truly the case and whether they meant it was wanted by the local
populace or by the local government.


I don't know how much support you could garner, but I hope you can find a
way to let the poloticians know that (at least among their constiuents who
fly...) voting for the track will be the loss of said constituency.


If nothing else, wish us luck, we're going to need it...

Paul Adriance



Regards,

Jay Beckman
Student Pilot - KCHD
Freelance Sports TV Technician
NASCAR on FOX/NBC
NFL on FOX
Arizona DiamondBacks Home Broadcast Crew

"Jay Beckman" wrote in message
news:7QB3c.4372$Nj.3268@fed1read01...

Geez...

Sorry about the sloppy quoting ... Damn Outlook...

Jay

"Paul Adriance" wrote in message thlink.net...
On one side of the ring: Arlington Municipal and it's associated
community:..

If nothing else, wish us luck, we're going to need it...

Paul Adriance

Good luck to you.

At the end of the day it's all about tax base guys. If their numbers
are going to be bigger than yours, you lose.

Anyone who says different is fooling themselves.

Bill O200

You know, maybe you should check a few things out before panicking. NASCAR
likes airports and they like having their tracks close to an airport.

Yes, there is the stadium TFR, but those TFRs allow traffic that are landing
or departing from an airport. Boeing Field does not close when there is a
game in Seattle. Neither does Daytona close during the race there.

I think it would be better to check out what the actual effect of any TFRs
would be before going into a tizzy on this one. The track might just be one
of the best things that ever happened to Arlington.

Have you talked to the FSDO and AOPA what the effect of the track would be?

Commercial scheduled are exempt to many TFRs

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
You know, maybe you should check a few things out before panicking. NASCAR
likes airports and they like having their tracks close to an airport.

Yes, there is the stadium TFR, but those TFRs allow traffic that are
landing
or departing from an airport. Boeing Field does not close when there is a
game in Seattle. Neither does Daytona close during the race there.

I think it would be better to check out what the actual effect of any TFRs
would be before going into a tizzy on this one. The track might just be
one
of the best things that ever happened to Arlington.

Have you talked to the FSDO and AOPA what the effect of the track would
be?

Hi Jay, here are some responses to your comments, thanks for taking your
time to read and post.

Is a capacity of 30,000+ the key to the creation of a TFR? A Nextel Cup
worthy racetrack would be more along the lines of 130,000+ in terms of
capacity. Of how large a diameter would such a TFR be?

For starters, let me say I am not opposed to the track, it could be a
wonderful thing for us here. It just needs to be farther from the airport
and that isn't as convenient or cheap. The TFR over such events is 3 miles
and 3000ft to the surface, based on seating capacity and not actual
attendance, and all of these sites are 2 miles or less from the airport.

Arlington is an uncontrolled airport and probably 30% or more of all
operations there are ultralights, gliders and fixed wing/gyros with no
engine driven electrical and thus no radios or transponders. Many of these
are vintage aircraft lovingly restored to near perfect condition by their
owners.

Commercial aircaft under ATC control are exempt from TFR restrictions except
in cases where the agency controlling the TFR protected facility denies
overflight permission. Arlington is first and foremost a GA airport, there
is NO tower, and if there were, all the gliders, ultralights, and non
electrical vintage aircraft would be grounded, probably a crippling blow to
aviation in this area.

I ask this because (at least as far as commercial air traffic goes) the
sports arenas/stadiums near KPHX (Sky Harbor) seem to be fair game for
flying right past.
Sun Devil Stadium in Tempe (home to the pathetic NFL Cardinals) is just
barely south of the extended centerline to the east of Sky Harbor Airport
and both the baseball stadium and the basketball arena are just north of
the
extended centerline to the west. If there are TFRs over these locations,
they don't seem to have much of an effect on aviation. At least not
commercial aviation, but some say that Sky Harbor is a very GA UN-friendly
airport to begin with so it may be a moot point as regards GA.

That is the very crux of the issue, even if we are allowed to operate GA at
the airport with a track less than 2 miles away, what happens after another
orange terrorist alert or even small scale GA scare? Once the Track is in
place next to the airport we are at the every whim and fancy of Homeland
Security and the TSA, who answer to no one but the President as far as I can
tell.

Your friends at Nascar and the ISC all have free waivers, so any GA looking
traffic you do see, IFR or otherwise during, before, and after events is
probably owners, drivers, families, and associated crew coming into and
leaving the venue. The Arlington airport is great for these folks but, we
have to stand on the ground and watch them use OUR airport as a convenient
commuting option.

Again, aircraft you see at Sky KPHX is most likely commercial and under ATC
control. It is the same situation here in Seattle with KSEA, Boeing Field
and our 2 sports stadiums.

In fact, we often look for America West a/c flying past the open roof of
Bank One Ballpark (BOB) in order to superimpose AmWest sponsorship
messages
as they fly by. We also look forward to the nightly British Airways 777
that roars right over us on their non-stop to Heathrow.

Are commercial carriers exempt from TFRs around sporting events?
Or are only certain events (of national significance) subject to TFRs
(Superbowls, NASCAR Races, World Series, College Bowl Games, etc...)

Any major event would probably shut down the airport because of the seating
capacity, not actual attendance. Again, Arlington doesn't have any
commercial carriers that I'm aware of, it's all GA and a large portion
operate w/out radios or transponders. Imagine what would happen when all
the business jets come in and helicopters start buzzing around during race
days? Especially considering the weather here is only suitable for events
3 months out of the year.

You can be sure "other" events will be frequent so ISC can recoup their
investment in the facility. I don't have data to back any of this up
right
now, but during the intial salvos of this conflict at an airport
commision
meeting tonight, someone mentioned an airport in the Arizona area that is
shut down almost 200 days a year due to a large venue near it.

Seriously? I'm not aware of where that would be. Like I said, flights
into
and out of Sky Harbor pass right next to over 130,000 potenital sporting
event attendees and I've never noticed a reduction in traffic when a game
is
in progress at any of them.

Again, that is probably commercial commercial traffic you see, that and
traffic in and out of the race for drivers, families, etc... Arlington is
a whole different situation as a non-towered airport populated by 90% GA
aircraft.

They probably will want to attract "touring" series to race on Friday
and/or
Saturday nights. They'd be lucky to draw much of a crowd for these races
however. Do there have to be 30,000+ live bodies actually at the event to
warrant a TFR? A NASCAR Nextel Cup weekend is only four days (when the
track is actually "hot" and being used.) Touring series race nights are
usually one and done.

No, it is seating capacity driven and event based. Practice days and other
associated days of a race are usually included, so it can mean several days
of closure for one event. But other major outdoor events are also highly
likely to generate TFRs as well.


FWIW, GA certainly has a friend in race team owner/P51 pilot Jack Roush
(he
of the ultralight accident and subsequent miraculous rescue/recovery
fame...) Driver Rusty Wallace is also a pilot as is Dale Jarrett ...
perhaps a letter writing campaign to these and other Owner/Driver-Pilots
might get a positive response?

If you have contact information or other methods of passing along input to
Rusty and other guys would might be supportive of us, please pass it along.
My email is padriance(remove this . I will forward it
to an alliance of pilots that is forming to urge the city to move the sites
at least 3 miles from the airport.

I'm afraid you are facing the 400Lb Gorilla of sports series. The amount
of
revenue generated by a NASCAR weekend is mind boggling and I'm sure all
those dollar signs can have a blinding effect.

Let me reiterate; a lot of us are fans ourselves, and we would love to have
a nearby NASCAR facility for major events but, we're pilots first and this
is our only home here. Hopefully, arrangments can be made to move the
facility just a mile or 2 farther and allow the airport and NASCAR/ISC to
operate and coexist together.

I don't know how much support you could garner, but I hope you can find a
way to let the poloticians know that (at least among their constiuents who
fly...) voting for the track will be the loss of said constituency.

This is actually the largest problem, our local officials ARE blinded by
dollars, they see the airport TFR issue as a problem to chip away at, not as
a reason to reconsider siteing the facility there. They know where they
want it, and probably when they send their reports to the ISC it will not
mention the airport commision opposing it or the full city meeting halls
with homeowners, pilots, and neighboring businesses that don't want to see
the facility near the airport. It will probably mention some "concerns over
possible impact to the airport" but that NASCAR, ISC, and associated groups
have TFR waivers anyway, so to them it's not an issue.

Thanks again for responding Jay, it's a pleasure to hear that we have
possible aviation allies to help us here. I hope to hear back from you,

Paul Adriance

You know, maybe you should check a few things out before panicking. NASCAR
likes airports and they like having their tracks close to an airport.

They like them because the TFR is a non issue for them, they are excempt.

Yes, there is the stadium TFR, but those TFRs allow traffic that are
landing
or departing from an airport. Boeing Field does not close when there is a
game in Seattle. Neither does Daytona close during the race there.

To commercial traffic under ATC control, Arlington doesn't even have a
tower, and only has a localizer IFR approach. 90% of our traffic is GA and
there are no regularly scheduled air transport operations that I'm aware of.

I think it would be better to check out what the actual effect of any TFRs
would be before going into a tizzy on this one. The track might just be
one
of the best things that ever happened to Arlington.

Have you talked to the FSDO and AOPA what the effect of the track would
be?

AOPA is already looking into it. The FSDO is irrelevant because it's TSA,
DoD, and Homeland Security who own the airspace now, the FAA is just another
puppet.


Paul

"Paul Adriance" wrote in message thlink.net...
I don't have
data to back any of this up right now, but during the intial salvos of this
conflict at an airport commision meeting tonight, someone mentioned an
airport in the Arizona area that is shut down almost 200 days a year due to
a large venue near it.

I live in Phoenix and this would be news to me. I don't know of any
large sports venue in AZ that even operates 200 days a year.
Currently, the TFRs over sporting events exclude aircraft taking off
and landing at nearby airports under ATC control.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

I live in Phoenix and this would be news to me. I don't know of any
large sports venue in AZ that even operates 200 days a year.
Currently, the TFRs over sporting events exclude aircraft taking off
and landing at nearby airports under ATC control.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

That comment is heresay and word of of mouth, so I won't attempt to support
it and would point out I mentioned the context in which it was presented.
However, even if it's only a few weeks or months out of the year, do you
think we should consider that an acceptable compromise? It is a
non-towered airport focused almost entirely on GA operations, there is
nobody who flies here that would benefit from ATC exemptions. I would also
mention that ISC affiliated individuals, NASCAR officials, drivers, their
families and associates are given automatic TFR exemptions and thus have no
vested interest in preserving our rights to the airfield.

The TSA, DoD, and Homeland Security operate in a world without
limitations. Under the auspices of national security, they can do pretty
much whatever they want. Why should we not fight a facility that gives
them an excuse to further restrict airspace and our airport operations in
the future? Sighting a major sporting venue within 2 miles of a major
uncontrolled airport is really just adding insult to injury to anybody who
relies on it for their livelihood and as a center for experimental,
non-electrical system, and unpowered aircraft.

The alliance forming to protect the field is not opposed to the track or
NASCAR moving into the county, they just need to spend a little more money
and put it another mile or 2 away from the airport. I'm afraid, however,
that our local officials will not be representing our interests.

Paul