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"Cluster bombs called 'war crime'"



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 25th 04, 08:08 PM
Ed Rasimus
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On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 14:59:49 GMT, "cypher745"
wrote:

Rats,

In response to your eloquent rebuttal.

" Umm, what the **** are you going on about? "

It was you who stated the following "Sure, let's put them all on trial.
Let's also include the US President
responsible for dropping the atomic bombs, the US President responsible for
carpet bombing, napalm and agent orange in Vietnam. US hypocrisy never
ceases to amaze me."


Where did the US "carpet bomb" in Vietnam? Tactical strikes in the
South were always FAC control. Tactical targets in the North were
strictly briefed. Did you ever read about the controversy regarding
bombing of dikes? Notice that POW camps in the center of Hanoi weren't
hit? I can give you a statement from a POW who was moved to a cell
with a window looking out on the Hanoi power plant. Wasn't hit.

More "carpet bombing" damage occurred in the North from falling AAA
shrapnel and missile debris than errant bombs.

What's wrong with napalm? Consider this, you're sitting in your living
room and I drop a mk-82 500 pound GP bomb in your front yard, fifteen
feet outside your front door. Your house is destroyed and you are
dead. Now, if it were a BLU-1B napalm can, you would hear a loud
swoosh, the bright flames would probably sear the house wall, and you
would get up from your easy chair and evacuate out the other end of
the house. Napalm any worse than a bomb? Emotionalism, that's all.

Agent Orange? You ever use weed killer in your back yard? I've seen
guys bathe in it. Emotionalism, that's all.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8
  #22  
Old January 25th 04, 08:44 PM
tscottme
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Rats wrote in message
...


Umm, what the **** are you going on about? This is about cluster bombs

being
used indiscriminately and killing civilians. Those accountable should

be
punished for their actions. The original poster said that Saddam and

co
should be sued as well. To this I agreed and also added the US

presidents
he'd conveniently left out.


Who said anything about indiscriminate use of cluster bombs? You
liberals think the only bombing ever done is either carpet bombing or
randomly dropped.

--

Scott
--------
The French, God bless them, are finally joining the war against Islamic
extremism. Their targets, which will now confront the full force of
l'état, are schoolgirls who wear Muslim head scarves in French public
schools.
Wall Street Journal


  #23  
Old January 25th 04, 11:26 PM
Rats
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"cypher745" wrote in message
m...
Your statement makes it seem like you think that the use of the atomic

bombs
by the US should be considered war crimes. As such, my original question

is
valid. Do you think that the greater loss of life on both sides, that

would
have
resulted from a direct invasion of Japan would have a been a better
alternative?

I eagerly await your reply.


How many soldiers did you kill with the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima
and Nagasaki? I also notice that you have conveniently left the part out
about carpet bombing, napalm and agent orange in Vietnam.

Yes, the use of nuclear weapons is a war crime.


  #24  
Old January 25th 04, 11:41 PM
BUFDRVR
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Where did the US "carpet bomb" in Vietnam? Tactical strikes in the
South were always FAC control.


Hmm, I don't know Ed. A BUFF with a 2.5 mile long bomb train pretty much sounds
like "carpet bombing" to me, particularly if you consider there were 3 or 4 of
them.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"
  #25  
Old January 25th 04, 11:43 PM
BUFDRVR
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Yes, the use of nuclear weapons is a war crime.


No its not.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"
  #26  
Old January 25th 04, 11:52 PM
John R Weiss
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"BUFDRVR" wrote...

Hmm, I don't know Ed. A BUFF with a 2.5 mile long bomb train pretty much

sounds
like "carpet bombing" to me, particularly if you consider there were 3 or 4 of
them.


I've seen the term "carpet bombing" bandied about for years. I've never seen or
heard a definition. Is there one? A generally accepted one?

  #27  
Old January 25th 04, 11:59 PM
BUFDRVR
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I've seen the term "carpet bombing" bandied about for years. I've never seen
or
heard a definition. Is there one? A generally accepted one?


I generally dislike the term since it's often applied to the BUFF and seems to
mean to most in the world media; "dropping 6 or more bombs at once". The
definition to most of the present and former aviators I know appears to be
"bombing a target *area* rather than a target itself".


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"
  #28  
Old January 26th 04, 12:08 AM
cypher745
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How many soldiers did you kill with the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima
and Nagasaki? I also notice that you have conveniently left the part out
about carpet bombing, napalm and agent orange in Vietnam.


Yes, the use of nuclear weapons is a war crime.



Hmmm. When you consider that I was not born till nearly 20 years after the
fact. And that at the time my family had still not immigrated to the US, I
would have to say that "I" did not kill anyone in Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

I just wanted to know if you opposed to the taking of human life, the use of
nuclear weapons or both. It would seem that the sanctity of human life means
nothing to you. That it is just the use of nuclear weapons that you object
to.

Or maybe.... Just maybe. You are against any weapon that would secure a
victory for the US, no matter how many lives it saves.

If I am out of line with that statement I apologize. But I don't think I am.

Could I ask where you are from and why it is that you hate the US?


  #29  
Old January 26th 04, 12:10 AM
Steve Hix
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In article ,
"Rats" wrote:

"cypher745" wrote in message
m...
Your statement makes it seem like you think that the use of the atomic

bombs
by the US should be considered war crimes. As such, my original question

is
valid. Do you think that the greater loss of life on both sides, that

would
have
resulted from a direct invasion of Japan would have a been a better
alternative?

I eagerly await your reply.


How many soldiers did you kill with the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima
and Nagasaki?


Does one of the last major IJ Naval bases, and an army division with
headquarters count?

I also notice that you have conveniently left the part out
about carpet bombing, napalm and agent orange in Vietnam.


Note Ed Rasimus' post elsewhere in this thread. (If you don't care to,
the digest answer is, you have no argument.)

Yes, the use of nuclear weapons is a war crime.


It wasn't at the time, which is what counts. Ex post facto, and all that.

Again, you dodged the question: Do you *really* think that the planned
direct invasion of the Japanese home islands, with attendant *far*
greater loss of Japanese, American, British and other Commonwealth
lives, is preferable to what actually happened?

Meanwhile, the Japanese Army was still active in China, with roughly
10,000 Chinese deaths daily, until the Emperor told them to stand down...

One hopes you don't respond with either evasion nor knee-jerk "anything
is better than nuclear", because it is an unsupportable position.
  #30  
Old January 26th 04, 12:46 AM
Ed Rasimus
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On 25 Jan 2004 22:59:14 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

I've seen the term "carpet bombing" bandied about for years. I've never seen
or
heard a definition. Is there one? A generally accepted one?


I generally dislike the term since it's often applied to the BUFF and seems to
mean to most in the world media; "dropping 6 or more bombs at once". The
definition to most of the present and former aviators I know appears to be
"bombing a target *area* rather than a target itself".


I agree--the key is area rather than specific target and the
implication is usually municipal rather than rural as well as
indiscriminate rather than specific military.

By that criteria, I'll still say little or no "carpet bombing" in SEA.
As BUFDRVR notes, a B-52 bomb string covers some ground, but Arc Light
missions were specific targets and virtually always jungle areas, not
cities or villages. Linebacker II BUFF drops were quite remarkable in
accuracy, with recce runs that confirmed almost every crater location
in the Route Pack.

In numerous areas the BDA photos showed bomb strings precisely on
military targets and clearly bypassing civilian or cultural
infrastructure.

Carpet bombing generally recalls the mass formations of WW II bombers
dropping en masse on European cities. Nothing like that ever happened
in SEA. Maybe if it had, we'd have finished it up in less than eight
years.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8
 




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