What to do about North Korea...?

Recently, Jay Honeck posted:

I don't know about the Balkans, but in Iraq we have not overthrown a
tyrant or two that hasn't been replaced by another tyrant or three.

??? What news reports are you reading?

Apparently, the same one's that I've been reading, where those in the
Iraqi "government" are imposing unsanctioned rules on the locals in the
few small areas where they can function at all.

Oh, wait, you're referring to the street violence again. Check out
East St. Louis on a Saturday night, and report back how well our own
democracy is working there.

You guys are hilarious. You expect democracy to work in the Middle
East overnight, when we've got portions of many American inner cities
that -- after 230 years -- can't even be patrolled safely by law
enforcement, let alone visited by normal Americans. .

When was that last time you spent any time in one of our major inner
cities, Jay? What do you *know* of living there? What do you *know* of
what is and isn't "rational behavior" there? From your comments, I'd say
you've spent no time in that environment; is that incorrect?

Life in those areas has been pretty much the same ever since such areas
were built, and the reason for the violence in those areas is pretty much
unchanged too. It isn't that those areas "...can't even be patrolled
safely by law enforcement...", they certainly could be, but aren't. So,
gangs and mob rule fill the void created by the lack of law enforcement
who are spending their time and resources in more affluent areas of the
city. The same choice has been made by local governments for over a
hundred years in cities like New York and Chicago. And, those police
departments are well known for their "integrity", aren't they?

Give it time. Sane people eventually LIKE democracy, flawed though it
may be.

If those residents weren't being disenfranchised at the polls, perhaps
they could give it a try.

Neil

Recently, Jay Honeck posted:

Rationale sane people are not
in charge of the nk government.

Some think the same about our leaders.

I've not met any sane people who claim this to be true.

I'd suspect that "people you've met" would be an insignificant sample size
of the world's population.

I suppose you believe these missile launches were the act of a sane
government? Good grief...

From the frame of mind of those in that region, I'd say yes, it was sane.
How do you think it will play out? We're not going to attack NK any more
than we're going to attack Pakistan or Iran, and pretty much for the same
reasons; the consequences are dire. That concept is slowly sinking into
Bush's dense skull.

Interestingly, it is the Japanese who are now demanding sanctions
against NK, and (as usual) the Russians and Chinese who are proving
that the "United Nations" is as ineffective as as always.

Given that the Russians and Chinese really *are* within range of NK's
weapons, it would seem that their opinions should carry more weight than
ours.

Here's the bottom line, folks: North Korea represents a clear and
present danger to the U.S.

You're being had, yet again.

The fact that we currently have an administration in power that
actually says what it means, and means what it says, is a fortunate
stroke of luck in world history.

We'll see. It appears that the Bush administration's actions have cause
more harm to our reputation than otherwise, and the mess that they created
in the Middle East will have negative repercussions for decades, if not
centuries. How do you see it playing out otherwise?

Sadly, incredibly, once again, if diplomacy fails it looks like we may
have to go it alone against North Korea --

It won't happen, unless Bush is truly insane.

Neil

Recently, Martin Hotze posted:

Matt Whiting wrote:

I don't agree with the decision to invade
Iraq, but I DO believe they had WMD


for sure they had them!
1) they used them
2) some of these have been bought from the USA; you should have the
receipt somewhere.

Hey, that's how we knew they had them. However, our accounting was flawed;
we couldn't accurately subtract those that they used from those that they
had.

Neil

"David Dyer-Bennet" wrote in message
...

I was sort of hoping we'd use this occasion for some live tests of our
anti-missile laser and missile systems. It would be nice to have some
free targets for a change.

Sure, but so embarrassing when it doesn't work!

Not as embarrassing as when they fail in a real crisis because they never
conducted a fully operational test.

Matt,

but I DO believe they had WMD


Hardly a matter of belief. There are none. Period.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

When was that last time you spent any time in one of our major inner
cities, Jay? What do you *know* of living there? What do you *know* of
what is and isn't "rational behavior" there? From your comments, I'd say
you've spent no time in that environment; is that incorrect?

Quite incorrect. I spent seven years collecting money in hard-core
inner city areas of Racine and Kenosha, WI -- on the "drug road" (I-94)
from Chicago to Milwaukee.

I've stepped across bodies to get into an apartment complex -- have
you?

And these areas are tiny examples of what's going on in the really big
inner cities -- yet they were areas that "normal" Americans --
including law enforcement officials -- feared to tread. (Luckily, I was
young and dumb...and got out alive.)

The only difference between these areas, and Baghdad, is the size of
the explosives used.

Life in those areas has been pretty much the same ever since such areas
were built, and the reason for the violence in those areas is pretty much
unchanged too.

Wrong. Inner cities grow like a fungus. What were once beautiful
parts of Milwaukee and Racine are now uninhabitable by normal
Americans. Gunshots ring out with regularity, and police are either
paid off or afraid.

Sound familiar? Does Baghdad come to mind?

It isn't that those areas "...can't even be patrolled
safely by law enforcement...", they certainly could be, but aren't. So,
gangs and mob rule fill the void created by the lack of law enforcement
who are spending their time and resources in more affluent areas of the
city.

That, my friend, is crap. Affluent areas generally receive miminal law
enforcement money -- why? Because there's no crime there. Cops just
don't have time to patrol a sleep, affluent suburb.

Where the money goes is to the "border" areas -- the fuzzy no-man's
land between the inner city and the "nice" parts of town. Sadly, in my
experience, for every piece of inner city that is "gentrified" (brought
back to liveability), there are three that sink into the putrid mess
known as "the ghetto".

Sound familiar?

Again -- you guys that expect democracy to work overnight in Iraq are
simply showing your ignorance. It won't happen -- no, it CAN'T happen
-- in a mere four years. Or ten. It hasn't happened here (in many
parts of America) yet.

The same choice has been made by local governments for over a
hundred years in cities like New York and Chicago. And, those police
departments are well known for their "integrity", aren't they?

Many choices are made -- just not the ones you think are being made.
The reason the police departments in Chicago and New York (and others)
have grown corrupt is because our namby-pamby court system simply
refuses to take the criminal element off the streets. I've spoken to
many police officers who won't arrest or detain a known criminal,
simply because there is no point. They'll be on the street again in
hours -- and the cop will have to fill out endless paperwork, and
(perhaps) appear in court.

Sound familiar?

If those residents weren't being disenfranchised at the polls, perhaps
they could give it a try.

Which residents -- Iraqi or American?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Again -- you guys that expect democracy to work overnight in Iraq are
simply showing your ignorance. It won't happen -- no, it CAN'T happen
-- in a mere four years. Or ten. It hasn't happened here (in many
parts of America) yet.

If it's so bad, why are we delivering it to the rest of the world?

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Recently, Jay Honeck posted:

When was that last time you spent any time in one of our major inner
cities, Jay? What do you *know* of living there? What do you *know*
of what is and isn't "rational behavior" there? From your comments,
I'd say you've spent no time in that environment; is that incorrect?

Quite incorrect. I spent seven years collecting money in hard-core
inner city areas of Racine and Kenosha, WI -- on the "drug road"
(I-94) from Chicago to Milwaukee.

Racine? Kenosha? Major inner cities... not! Still, I'd say those are good
experiences to draw on, so what would you consider to be rational behavior
for those who live there?

The only difference between these areas, and Baghdad, is the size of
the explosives used.

Well, I differ with your opinion, here, unless your comparison is that
both "these areas" and life in Baghdad are the result of our government's
involvement.

Life in those areas has been pretty much the same ever since such
areas were built, and the reason for the violence in those areas is
pretty much unchanged too.

Wrong. Inner cities grow like a fungus. What were once beautiful
parts of Milwaukee and Racine are now uninhabitable by normal
Americans. Gunshots ring out with regularity, and police are either
paid off or afraid.

Well, we agree about the corruption as a contributing factor. As for
"Inner cities grow like a fungus", well, no, they don't. They are the
result of many things, such as the lack of ownership, lack of opportunity,
extraction of wealth, and lack of enforcement of building codes and law.
Those areas where, for example, absentee landlords are held accountable
for their property do not become blighted, and a desirable side effect is
that ownership is increased. That still doesn't guarantee safety and
protection, though, and that will discourages investment and limit
opportunity.

It isn't that those areas "...can't even be patrolled
safely by law enforcement...", they certainly could be, but aren't.
So, gangs and mob rule fill the void created by the lack of law
enforcement who are spending their time and resources in more
affluent areas of the city.

That, my friend, is crap. Affluent areas generally receive miminal
law enforcement money -- why? Because there's no crime there. Cops
just don't have time to patrol a sleep, affluent suburb.

Please read more carefully. I didn't say anything about "suburbs" -- I
said "...more affluent areas of the city." Since a city has a single
budget for law enforcement, it is the same for the affluent areas as it is
for the poor areas. But, that isn't how the resources are apportioned.

Where the money goes is to the "border" areas -- the fuzzy no-man's
land between the inner city and the "nice" parts of town.

And, whose police force is in the "border areas"? We may be in agreement,
there.

Again -- you guys that expect democracy to work overnight in Iraq are
simply showing your ignorance. It won't happen -- no, it CAN'T happen
-- in a mere four years. Or ten. It hasn't happened here (in many
parts of America) yet.

Again, we may be in agreement. But, I'll go a step further; if we can't do
it, we can't help others to do it, and therefore have no business trying
to impose it on those others.

The same choice has been made by local governments for over a
hundred years in cities like New York and Chicago. And, those police
departments are well known for their "integrity", aren't they?

Many choices are made -- just not the ones you think are being made.
The reason the police departments in Chicago and New York (and others)
have grown corrupt is because our namby-pamby court system simply
refuses to take the criminal element off the streets. I've spoken to
many police officers who won't arrest or detain a known criminal,
simply because there is no point. They'll be on the street again in
hours -- and the cop will have to fill out endless paperwork, and
(perhaps) appear in court.

And, these police officers' job is to do what, exactly? What you're
describing are people who, if not criminals themselves by virtue of aiding
and abetting crime, at least lack integrity. To not arrest criminals
because they'd have to fill out paperwork is absurd.

Neil

Again -- you guys that expect democracy to work overnight in Iraq are
simply showing your ignorance. It won't happen -- no, it CAN'T happen
-- in a mere four years. Or ten. It hasn't happened here (in many
parts of America) yet.

If it's so bad, why are we delivering it to the rest of the world?

Democracy is a terribly corrupt and inefficient system.

It's also the best system we've yet devised.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Don't be silly. Comparing the fiasco in Iraq to conditions in Chicago is an
act of willful self delusion. Does it make you feel better about the cost
of the war?

The word "Chicago" is a metaphor for ALL American inner cities.
Personally, I'd rather be spending money in the Middle East -- the
source of our economic life-blood -- than in the inner cities our own
citizens choose to create on a daily basis.

How many Islamist terrorists are being created in Chicago? How many U. S.
troops are being killed every week in Chicago? How many $billions are being
added every month to the federal deficit?

You haven't spent much time there, have you, Dan? The criminal
element in every American inner city are easily on a par with
terrorists -- and they probably have better weaponry.

How many billions are being added to the federal deficit by the inner
cities? Surely you jest! Lyndon Johnson started the fiasco with his
vaunted "War on Poverty" in the 1960s -- until now fully 2/3rds of our
federal (that's FEDERAL) budget is spent on "entitlements"...

The Iraq war is a disaster created by fools. These idiots have gotten our
country stuck in a hopeless mess with no good way out. They deserve to be
held accountable for the harm they have done: the time for excuses and
rationalizations is long past.

Let's see...how long were our troops stationed in the Axis countries
after the end of World War II... Oh, wait -- you mean they haven't
left YET? I think the fools who got us into that never-ending mess
should be held accountable!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"