Safety pilot in and out of IMC

Dan Luke wrote:
: As long as you're flying an IFR clearance, I see no problem with it. Are you
: doing it just so you can log the time in actual? Whenever I'm doing practice
: approaches in such conditions, I just keep the foggles on the whole time.
: --

There's one potential problem with this that I can see. If you're trying to
both log PIC time (which is what it sounds like), there's a potential issue. Remember
that in order to both log PIC time, you must agree with each other beforehand that
while you are under the hood, he is ACTING as PIC (and thus legally responsible for
the safe outcome of the flight). Since two pilots are required for that portion of
the flight, his ACTING as PIC allows him to LOG PIC, while your manipulation of the
controls of an aircraft for which you are rated allows you to also LOG PIC for the
same time.

If your safety pilot has an instrument rating, this is fine. If the safety
pilot does NOT have an instrument rating, then you would legally have to terminate IFR
upon entering VMC in order for him to ACT as PIC. No person may accept an IFR
clearance without an instrument rating, whether in VMC or IMC. If you continue to fly
in VMC on and IFR clearance, you must still be ACTING as PIC while you manipulate the
controls so the safety pilot cannot log the time.

Conversely, if you were NOT on an IFR clearance, while it would be legal for
him to ACT as PIC in VMC, you would not be able to enter IMC without first getting a
clearance.

It sounds complicated, but I finally think I have the ACTING vs. LOGGING PIC
time thing figured out. Feel free to poke holes in the logic.

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:19:59 +0000 (UTC),
(Paul Tomblin) wrote:

I want to go fly some approaches (and a hold) on Sunday. I know from
experience that it's likely that the ceilings will be too high to do any
meaningful approaches in IMC, but high enough that I might be in IMC
during the vectors to the approach or at the hold. I figured I could take
along a safety pilot, and then when I break out on the approach tell him
he's acting PIC while I put on my foggles and complete the approach, and
then when we go back into the clouds on the missed take off the foggles
(or not) and become PIC again.

Has anybody else done this? Is it smart? Safe? Legal?


Why does he have to become PUC?

Safety pilots don't have to be PIC.

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 08:51:36 -0600, "Dan Luke" wrote:


"Paul Tomblin" wrote:
I want to go fly some approaches (and a hold) on Sunday. I know from
experience that it's likely that the ceilings will be too high to do any
meaningful approaches in IMC, but high enough that I might be in IMC
during the vectors to the approach or at the hold. I figured I could take
along a safety pilot, and then when I break out on the approach tell him
he's acting PIC while I put on my foggles and complete the approach, and
then when we go back into the clouds on the missed take off the foggles
(or not) and become PIC again.

Has anybody else done this? Is it smart? Safe? Legal?

As long as you're flying an IFR clearance, I see no problem with it. Are you
doing it just so you can log the time in actual? Whenever I'm doing practice
approaches in such conditions, I just keep the foggles on the whole time.


If he was on an IFR clearance, there WOULD be a problem with it if the
safety pilot is not rated.

Paul Tomblin wrote:

I want to go fly some approaches (and a hold) on Sunday. I know from
experience that it's likely that the ceilings will be too high to do any
meaningful approaches in IMC, but high enough that I might be in IMC
during the vectors to the approach or at the hold. I figured I could take
along a safety pilot, and then when I break out on the approach tell him
he's acting PIC while I put on my foggles and complete the approach, and
then when we go back into the clouds on the missed take off the foggles
(or not) and become PIC again.

Has anybody else done this? Is it smart? Safe? Legal?



Since you have to file IFR to fly in IMC anyway, why worry about taking
off the foggles? Just leave them on and fly like you are in VMC, but
tell your safety pilot to make sure they keep their eyes open during the
times you pop out of the clouds.


Matt

Paul Tomblin wrote:

In a previous article, Ron Natalie said:

Paul Tomblin wrote:

during the vectors to the approach or at the hold. I figured I could take
along a safety pilot, and then when I break out on the approach tell him
he's acting PIC while I put on my foggles and complete the approach, and

It seems reasonable. However, why not leave the foggles on all
the time. It's redundant in IMC, but saves you having to fiddle
with them.


Good point.


There's no need to tell the other pilot to be "PIC", just ask him
to take the controls. There's a difference betweeen operating the
controls and serving as pilot in command.


I don't want him to take the controls. I thought that the non-instrument
rated safety pilot in VMC is acting PIC (and both of us can log PIC since
he's acting and I'm sole manipulator), but obviously he can't be acting
PIC when in IMC.



I'd have to go back and check the regs to be sure, but I don't recall
that the safety pilot has to act as PIC or even should do so.


Matt

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 18:03:16 -0500, Matt Whiting
wrote:

I'd have to go back and check the regs to be sure, but I don't recall
that the safety pilot has to act as PIC or even should do so.

Your recollection is correct. The safety pilot does not even have to be
qualified to act as PIC in VFR conditions!


--ron

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 15:15:44 +0000 (UTC), (Paul
Tomblin) wrote:

I thought that the non-instrument rated safety pilot in VMC is acting PIC

That is incorrect. The safety pilot does not even have to be qualified to
act as PIC under VFR! For example, the legal safety pilot may not have the
appropriate endorsements to act as PIC in the aircraft you are using.

(and both of us can log PIC since he's acting and I'm sole manipulator)

It is possible to arrange for that to happen, but there is no requirement.



--ron

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:19:59 +0000 (UTC), (Paul
Tomblin) wrote:

I want to go fly some approaches (and a hold) on Sunday. I know from
experience that it's likely that the ceilings will be too high to do any
meaningful approaches in IMC, but high enough that I might be in IMC
during the vectors to the approach or at the hold. I figured I could take
along a safety pilot, and then when I break out on the approach tell him
he's acting PIC while I put on my foggles and complete the approach, and
then when we go back into the clouds on the missed take off the foggles
(or not) and become PIC again.

Has anybody else done this? Is it smart? Safe? Legal?

Why do you want the safety pilot to become PIC?

There is no requirement for him to do so.

I think the "smart" thing would be to have one PIC for the entire flight.

If the safety pilot is instrument rated and current, then it could be him.
If the safety pilot is not instrument rated and current, then you would
have to terminate your IFR clearance when you became legal VFR and resume
it when the weather conditions became less than legal VFR. It sounds like
an awful lot of coordination between you, your safety pilot and ATC.

So I've never done it; I don't believe it is smart; and I doubt you could
get the necessary coordination with ATC to make it legal if your safety
pilot is not instrument rated.

If it were me, I would just wear the foggles and use the safety pilot when
required by the regulations. Safety pilot logs nothing or SIC if he wishes
for that time when he is required.

You are the PIC for the flight, and log PIC and instrument time.


--ron

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 18:03:16 -0500, Matt Whiting
wrote:

I'd have to go back and check the regs to be sure, but I don't recall
that the safety pilot has to act as PIC or even should do so.

Your recollection is correct. The safety pilot does not even have to be
qualified to act as PIC under VFR!

--ron

Here is method 1:
YOU file an IFR flight plan. YOU are PIC. Wear foggles in the VMC,
take them off in the clouds. Your safety pilot is safety pilot only
when you are in VMC. You log PIC, he doesn't log anything (he COULD
log second in command if he wants).

Here is method 2:
Your SAFETY files the IFR flight plan. You wear foggles in VMC, take
them off in the clouds. Your safety pilot can log PIC (by virtue of
being in charge of the flight). You log PIC by virtue of manipulating
the controls.

You can't do method 2 because your safety pilot is not IFR rated. But
you CAN do method 1. If you rent the plane you probably don't want to
do method 2 anyway, even if your safety is IFR rated. So do method 1.