Safety pilot in and out of IMC

On 3 Dec 2004 20:07:37 -0800, (Doug)
wrote:

Here is method 1:
YOU file an IFR flight plan. YOU are PIC. Wear foggles in the VMC,
take them off in the clouds. Your safety pilot is safety pilot only
when you are in VMC. You log PIC, he doesn't log anything (he COULD
log second in command if he wants).

Here is method 2:
Your SAFETY files the IFR flight plan. You wear foggles in VMC, take
them off in the clouds. Your safety pilot can log PIC (by virtue of
being in charge of the flight). You log PIC by virtue of manipulating
the controls.

Safety pilot cannot log PIC while in the clouds unless he is
manipulating the controls.



You can't do method 2 because your safety pilot is not IFR rated. But
you CAN do method 1. If you rent the plane you probably don't want to
do method 2 anyway, even if your safety is IFR rated. So do method 1.

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 18:03:16 -0500, Matt Whiting
wrote:


I'd have to go back and check the regs to be sure, but I don't recall
that the safety pilot has to act as PIC or even should do so.


Your recollection is correct. The safety pilot does not even have to be
qualified to act as PIC in VFR conditions!


The don't even need to be qualified to act as PIC in *ANY* conditions (unless
they are PIC). All it takes is category and class (and type if appropriate)
and a medical.

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

That is incorrect. The safety pilot does not even have to be
qualified to act as PIC under VFR!

....unless the safety pilot wants to log the time as PIC. Otherwise, just
retain PIC, use a safety pilot rated in category and class and all is well.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_s...veloperid=4415
____________________

As long as you have met the IFR 6 month requirement for passenagers
or current IFR, should be not problem. You may want to clear your
safty pilot with your insurance company. Anything happens, even during
taxing, the safty
pilot is responsible. Avemco told me this bit of information.

5pguy wrote:

As long as you have met the IFR 6 month requirement for passenagers
or current IFR, should be not problem. You may want to clear your
safty pilot with your insurance company. Anything happens, even during
taxing, the safty
pilot is responsible. Avemco told me this bit of information.


What 6 month requirement for passengers?


Matt

Regs require IFR pilots to fly 6 approaches, a hold and follow a VOR
every 6 months to remain current. If you do this, you are allowed to
have
passengers while in IMC. This is legal. If you are outside "current"
; meaning
6 months and 1 day since you last fullfilled reg 61.57(c), then you can
only
fullfill this reg while in VFR conditions.

So, if a pilot is "in and out" of IMC while doing their 6 approaches
and they are outside of the 6 month period and they have a safty pilot
aboard, that pilot is not flying within the regs.

This is what I was referring to for passengers. Your safty pilot is a
passenager, even thou they are PIC. That's my understanding. If you
are
outside of reg 61.57(c) (6 months, 6 approaches, hold and following the
VOR), then you must remain in VRF conditions.

While talking to the insurance company, they informed me of the
following in general conversation... The safty pilot is PIC and if I
were taxing and dinged another aircraft, the safty pilot is
responsible. Also, I was told that
the safty pilot must be "ok'd" by us ( the insurance company) prior you

your flight.

So, I contact my club. They then told me that I can not simply asking
another VFR pilot who is current to fly with me as a safty pilot. I
think
we were all told in IFR training, that any VFR current pilot of type
aircraft
was ok to use. The club said that I must get someone
from the club to be a safty piloty and yes, it must be cleared by
the club first. So I figured that if the club must ok it first,
then the insurance company must have cleared a list of safty pilots
for that club. Check it out with our insurance provider.

Reg 61.57(c). The 6 approaches, a hold and follow a VOR every 6 months
to remaind current for your IFR rating.

Regs require IFR pilots to fly 6 approaches, a hold and follow a VOR
every 6 months to remain current. If you do this, you are allowed to
have passengers while in IMC

In the US, if you do not do this, you may not fly in IMC or under IFR
even in VMC (though you may fly VFR with a safety pilot and do
practice approaches in VMC). Passengers have nothing to do with it.

There is a separate reg for takeoffs and landings - in the US you must
do (or "one" must have done) three takeoffs =and= landings in order to
be able to carry passengers. If you haven't done this, you can still
fly solo.

Jose
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Assuming you're talking about a typical single engine aircraft, or any
other that only requires one crew member, the one operating the controls
would be pic while taxiing regardless of what you plan on doing the rest
of the flight. The safety pilot is just a passenger when you don't have
the hood on (I'm assuming you don't wear it for taxi lol) because the
safety pilot is not a required crew member at this time. This is my
understanding based on what I have been taught.

5pguy wrote:
As long as you have met the IFR 6 month requirement for passenagers
or current IFR, should be not problem. You may want to clear your
safty pilot with your insurance company. Anything happens, even during
taxing, the safty
pilot is responsible. Avemco told me this bit of information.

On 18 Dec 2004 21:24:47 -0800, "5pguy" wrote:

My comments are related to US rules (Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations)
only.

Regs require IFR pilots to fly 6 approaches, a hold and follow a VOR
every 6 months to remain current.

Not quite. There is no requirement to "follow a VOR". You are probably
thinking of the requirement to intercept and track a course using
navigation systems. There is no requirement that the navigation system be
a VOR.

If you do this, you are allowed to have passengers while in IMC.

Not necessarily. The rules for carrying passengers are different from the
rules for acting as PIC under IFR. If you have not done at least three
takeoffs and landings in the preceding 90 days, you would not be allowed to
have passengers in IMC even if you are current instruments as you describe.


If you are outside "current"; meaning 6 months and 1 day since you last
fullfilled reg 61.57(c), then you can only fullfill this reg while in
VFR conditions.

Again, not quite. There is no requirement in the regs that currency must
be done in VFR conditions. You are probably confused by the fact that this
non-current pilot cannot act as PIC under IFR. This prohibition would be
true regardless of the weather conditions. However, there is no
requirement that this pilot be acting as PIC when fulfilling the currency
requirement for flying IFR.


So, if a pilot is "in and out" of IMC while doing their 6 approaches
and they are outside of the 6 month period and they have a safty pilot
aboard, that pilot is not flying within the regs.

Again, not quite. There is nothing in the regulations precluding the
safety pilot from being designated as PIC under these circumstances
(provided the SP is qualified to do so). If that is the case, there is no
regulation being broken.



This is what I was referring to for passengers. Your safty pilot is a
passenager, even thou they are PIC. That's my understanding.

Your understanding is incorrect. If anyone is a passenger, it would be the
pilot flying, not the non-flying PIC.

If you are outside of reg 61.57(c) (6 months, 6 approaches, hold and following the
VOR), then you must remain in VRF conditions.

Again, there is no FAR requiring this.


While talking to the insurance company, they informed me of the
following in general conversation... The safty pilot is PIC and if I
were taxing and dinged another aircraft, the safty pilot is
responsible. Also, I was told that the safty pilot must be "ok'd"
by us ( the insurance company) prior you your flight.

That is purely an insurance company regulation without basis in the FAR's.
My insurer does have an open pilot specification. Many do, some don't.


So, I contact my club. They then told me that I can not simply asking
another VFR pilot who is current to fly with me as a safty pilot. I
think
we were all told in IFR training, that any VFR current pilot of type
aircraft
was ok to use. The club said that I must get someone
from the club to be a safty piloty and yes, it must be cleared by
the club first. So I figured that if the club must ok it first,
then the insurance company must have cleared a list of safty pilots
for that club. Check it out with our insurance provider.

Again, these are club rules, or insurance company rules, without basis in
the FAR's.

As a matter of fact, if you are doing your instrument currency requirements
under VFR, then (under US FAR's), the safety pilot does NOT have to be
current. He merely has to be rated in category and class, and have a
current medical. He does NOT require, for example, a high-performance
endorsement; passenger carrying currency (3 takeoffs and landings within 90
days); tail wheel endorsement; etc.


--ron