Do you log airborne time, or aircraft moving time?

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 22:15:53 +0100, Peter wrote:

I am referring to airframe/engine/propeller logs, not pilot's logbook.

In the US, those times are tach times (times when the engine is running).
It is generally NOT logged at all by pilots (nor is there any requirement
for the pilot to log those times).


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

U.S. FAR's cite that pilot can log all time in operation of airplane.
Time for maintenance purposes is for purposes of flight and means that time
the wheels are not on the ground.

Some operators have a hobbs meter activated by sqwat switch.

Kent Felkins
Tulsa Oklahoma



"Peter" wrote in message
...
I am referring to airframe/engine/propeller logs, not pilot's logbook.

FAR says one should log the time the aircraft is in motion. However I
understand some people log airborne time only.

Any views?

Here in the UK, under G-reg, we can log airborne time for all
maintenance purposes, and brakes-off to brakes-on in the pilot's
logbook.


Peter.
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Peter wrote:

FAR says one should log the time the aircraft is in motion. However I
understand some people log airborne time only.

Any views?

Here in the UK, under G-reg, we can log airborne time for all
maintenance purposes, and brakes-off to brakes-on in the pilot's
logbook.

That's the same as Canada. Our aircraft journey log has columns for both
flight time (from when the plane starts moving to when it stops) and air
time (wheels up to wheels down). Flight time goes into the pilot's logbook,
and air time goes into the maintenance log.


All the best,


David

In article , Peter
wrote:

I am referring to airframe/engine/propeller logs, not pilot's logbook.

I use tach time.

--
Bob Noel
Seen on Kerry's campaign airplane: "the real deal"
oh yeah baby.

In article , Peter
wrote:

I am referring to airframe/engine/propeller logs, not pilot's logbook.

[snip]
The FAR book suggests

Flight time means:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under
its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the
aircraft comes to rest after landing

that maintenance should be based on total time in motion, and I
wondered how many people do that. It would increase hours-based
maintenance costs (e.g. the engine fund) by 15-25% depending on how
much time one typically spends on the ground.

I'm confused. Are you talking about time for maintenance purposes
or pilot time? Your original statement made me think you were asking
about maintenance logs. If so, then FAA suggestions regarding
"pilot time" are not relavant.

--
Bob Noel
Seen on Kerry's campaign airplane: "the real deal"
oh yeah baby.

As you are asking in rec.aviation.OWNING, how do you log the hours in your
pilots log book?

Do you expect this to correlate with your aircraft log book?

Will the inspector when he compares the two?

And if your are in the "Land of the Free?", how do you expect the jury to
see it?

Hope this helps,
Peter

On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 08:11:18 +0100, Peter wrote:

The FAR book suggests

Flight time means:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under
its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the
aircraft comes to rest after landing

that maintenance should be based on total time in motion, and I
wondered how many people do that. It would increase hours-based
maintenance costs (e.g. the engine fund) by 15-25% depending on how
much time one typically spends on the ground.

The FAR's do NOT define maintenance time that way. The FAR's rather use
the phrase "time in service" and FAR 1.1 defines TIS as

"Time in service", with respect to maintenance time records, means the time
from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface of the earth until it
touches it at the next point of landing.

That would be less than flight time, which is defined (also in FAR 1.1) as:

Flight time means:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own
power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest
after landing.

------------------------------

Tach time in most a/c is probably close enough to TIS to be useable as
such, and has been how the records are kept at every maintenance shop I've
been at (in the US) over the past 30 or so years of a/c ownership.

Now with GPS becoming more prevalent, and with GPS having the ability to
start/stop a timer based on a/c speed; or by using a timer tied to a squat
switch or similar; I suppose one could keep times based on actual TIS as it
is defined in the FAR's.

--------------------------

However, I believe Part 91 only mentions maintenance time with regard to
determining when a 100 hr inspection is due. Part 43 does indicate that
"time in service" is what is supposed to be recorded when maintenance is
performed.



Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Bushy wrote:
As you are asking in rec.aviation.OWNING, how do you log the hours in your
pilots log book?

Irrelavant to a maintenence question.


Do you expect this to correlate with your aircraft log book?

It's not designed to. You don't even have to keep a pilots log, other
than for currency and new ratings.



Will the inspector when he compares the two?

No inspector would ever have a reason to compare them.



And if your are in the "Land of the Free?", how do you expect the jury to
see it?

There's no reason to compare the two because they don't show anything.

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:



However, I believe Part 91 only mentions maintenance time with regard to
determining when a 100 hr inspection is due. Part 43 does indicate that
"time in service" is what is supposed to be recorded when maintenance is
performed.

And since you don't do 100 hours unless the plane is for hire the whole
conversation is moot.

Been involved with large aircraft my whole career. They don't have
tach or hobbs meters - well maybe a hobbs on the APU

Pilot logs block time - brake release to brake set
Maintenance logs reflect flight time and cycles - wheels off to on.

I've done maintenance ground runs several hours in length and those
don't get logged. You may taxi out on one engine. Doesn't matter -
only flight time and cycles are logged in the engine and airframe
books. APU hobbs goes in the APU book.

I think the FAR's in the US will reflect that method is legal no
matter the aircraft size and I think most countrie's regs are the
same. Want to log that way in your Cessna. It's OK with the FAA.



On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 10:34:00 -0600, Newps wrote:



Ron Rosenfeld wrote:



However, I believe Part 91 only mentions maintenance time with regard to
determining when a 100 hr inspection is due. Part 43 does indicate that
"time in service" is what is supposed to be recorded when maintenance is
performed.

And since you don't do 100 hours unless the plane is for hire the whole
conversation is moot.


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