Coordinated turns and the little ball

How much of a movement in the little ball in the turn indicator
corresponds to something you can feel in a real aircraft? And how
much of a movement represents an error large enough to affect flight
safety or proper maneuvering?

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Mxsmanic wrote:
How much of a movement in the little ball in the turn indicator
corresponds to something you can feel in a real aircraft? And how
much of a movement represents an error large enough to affect flight
safety or proper maneuvering?


The answer is that it depends. It is more important to keep the
plane coordinated at slower airspeeds and/or higher load factors.

It is also important on climbout (high angle of attack & large P
factor) because you want the best climb capability you can get
especially with underpowered aircraft. Needless to say it is well
to keep it coordinated in cruise as well since drag is greatly
incresed thus reducing cruise efficiency.

An experienced pilot can feel it when the aircraft is not
flying coordinated. If you were a passenger with a drink sitting
on a table in the back you would notice un-coordinated flight
because the liquid would not be level in the glass.

ktbr writes:

The answer is that it depends. It is more important to keep the
plane coordinated at slower airspeeds and/or higher load factors.

Is it possible to spot an uncoordinated turn visually, just by
watching how things move out the window, or is it only perceptible
through the movement of the aircraft?

I'm trying to figure out how hard I should try to keep the ball
centered. In the sim I can't feel any movement, so I don't know how
tightly I have to control the turn (based on what the ball says).

It is also important on climbout (high angle of attack & large P
factor) because you want the best climb capability you can get
especially with underpowered aircraft. Needless to say it is well
to keep it coordinated in cruise as well since drag is greatly
incresed thus reducing cruise efficiency.

I note that rudder can keep the turn coordinated, but changes in pitch
seem to be able to do it, too. Pulling back on the stick in a turn
not only maintains altitude, but it also seems to coordinate the turn
to some degree.

An experienced pilot can feel it when the aircraft is not
flying coordinated. If you were a passenger with a drink sitting
on a table in the back you would notice un-coordinated flight
because the liquid would not be level in the glass.

I've seen videos of pilots rolling an aircraft while pouring drinks.
I haven't tried that in the sim.

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Mxsmanic schrieb:

Is it possible to spot an uncoordinated turn visually, just by
watching how things move out the window, or is it only perceptible
through the movement of the aircraft?

In a sustained turn, you can't see it. But you can feel it. In a real
aircraft, that is.

I'm trying to figure out how hard I should try to keep the ball
centered.

It's goot piloting to keep the ball centered. Always work on your skills
to keep the ball even more centered. Actually, the ball is a pretty
coarse instument. So if the ball moves out of the center even by a
detectable amount, you are flying really uncoordinated.

I note that rudder can keep the turn coordinated, but changes in pitch
seem to be able to do it, too. Pulling back on the stick in a turn
not only maintains altitude, but it also seems to coordinate the turn
to some degree.

"To some degree" is not good enough. It may be good enough from a
strictly practical point of view, but it's bad style.

I've seen videos of pilots rolling an aircraft while pouring drinks.
I haven't tried that in the sim.

Shouldn't be very difficult while playing MSFS...

Stefan

I think he'll still pour the drink all over himself...:-)

mike

"Stefan" wrote in message
...

I've seen videos of pilots rolling an aircraft while pouring drinks.
I haven't tried that in the sim.

Shouldn't be very difficult while playing MSFS...

Stefan

Recently, Mxsmanic posted:

How much of a movement in the little ball in the turn indicator
corresponds to something you can feel in a real aircraft? And how
much of a movement represents an error large enough to affect flight
safety or proper maneuvering?

All of this depends on what you're doing at the time. One can slip fairly
drastically -- with the ball pretty far off center -- without much of a
physical sensation. OTOH, one can pin the passenger against the wall with
the same amount of slip. How dangerous any of this is also depends on what
you're doing at the time. If you're careless and go into a stall, then
it's possible that you'll wind up in a spin, which if you're close to the
ground can kill you. The bottom line is that if the pilot is in control of
the aircraft, all of this can be quite safe and routine.

Neil

On Fri, 06 Oct 2006 15:04:36 GMT, "Neil Gould"
wrote:

Recently, Mxsmanic posted:

How much of a movement in the little ball in the turn indicator
corresponds to something you can feel in a real aircraft? And how
much of a movement represents an error large enough to affect flight
safety or proper maneuvering?

All of this depends on what you're doing at the time. One can slip fairly
drastically -- with the ball pretty far off center -- without much of a
physical sensation. OTOH, one can pin the passenger against the wall with
the same amount of slip. How dangerous any of this is also depends on what
you're doing at the time. If you're careless and go into a stall, then
it's possible that you'll wind up in a spin, which if you're close to the
ground can kill you. The bottom line is that if the pilot is in control of
the aircraft, all of this can be quite safe and routine.

Read Kershner on cross-control stalls on the base to final leg.

Even novice passengers can feel uncoordinated flight, but they won't
know why they feel queasy.

Don

Neil Gould writes:

All of this depends on what you're doing at the time. One can slip fairly
drastically -- with the ball pretty far off center -- without much of a
physical sensation. OTOH, one can pin the passenger against the wall with
the same amount of slip.

What distinguishes the two types of slip?

How dangerous any of this is also depends on what
you're doing at the time. If you're careless and go into a stall, then
it's possible that you'll wind up in a spin, which if you're close to the
ground can kill you. The bottom line is that if the pilot is in control of
the aircraft, all of this can be quite safe and routine.

The rudder is controlled in my sim by twisting the stick (not very
realistic, but inexpensive), and it's difficult to keep the ball
centered that way. I'm slowly getting better at it, though.

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I'm a flight instructor so I can feel 1/4 of a ball out, but that's
what I'm trained to do. However, in your simulator, I would not worry
about it. You're not going to be able to reproduce the environment
similar to the aircraft without having rudders, etc. When I play MSFS I
set it to autocoordination.

-Robert, CFII

Mxsmanic wrote:
How much of a movement in the little ball in the turn indicator
corresponds to something you can feel in a real aircraft? And how
much of a movement represents an error large enough to affect flight
safety or proper maneuvering?

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Robert M. Gary writes:

I'm a flight instructor so I can feel 1/4 of a ball out, but that's
what I'm trained to do. However, in your simulator, I would not worry
about it. You're not going to be able to reproduce the environment
similar to the aircraft without having rudders, etc. When I play MSFS I
set it to autocoordination.

I have independent rudder enabled and the stick can be twisted to move
the rudder independently, but it's quite hard to precisely control the
rudder this way. Even so, I don't want to just ignore the rudder
completely. I'm doing okay in using rudder to stay aligned on runways
and to land in very modest crosswinds, but keeping a turn coordinated
is challenging (in part because you're moving the stick in several
different ways at once).

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