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#51
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History Channel
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message m... Robert Sveinson wrote: You really haven't read the information below have you? Yes, I have. Do you know who was on the survey? Is this close enough? The United States Strategic Bombing Survey was established by the Secretary of War on November 3, 1944, pursuant to a directive from the late President Roosevelt. The officers of the Survey we Franklin D'Olier, Chairman. Henry C. Alexander, Vice-Chairman. George W. Ball, Harry L. Bowman, John K. Galbraith, Rensis Likert, Frank A. McNamee, Paul H. Nitze, Robert P. Russell, Fred Searls, Jr., Theodore P. Wright, Directors. Charles C. Cabot, Secretary. The Table of Organization provided for 300 civilians, 350 officers and 500 enlisted men. The Survey operated from headquarters in London and established forward headquarters and regional headquarters in Germany immediately following the advance of the Allied armies. The United States Strategic Bombing Survey http://www.anesi.com/ussbs02.htm#eaocar The U. S. Army Air Forces entered the European war with the firm view that specific industries and services were the most promising targets in the enemy economy, and they believed that if these targets were to be hit accurately, the attacks had to be made in daylight. A word needs to be said on the problem of accuracy in attack. Before the war, the U. S. Army Air Forces had advanced bombing techniques to their highest level of development and had trained a limited number of crews to a high degree of precision in bombing under target range conditions, thus leading to the expressions "pin point" and "pickle barrel" bombing. However, it was not possible to approach such standards of accuracy under battle conditions imposed over Europe. Many limiting factors intervened; target obscuration by clouds, fog, smoke screens and industrial haze; enemy fighter opposition which necessitated defensive bombing formations, thus restricting freedom of maneuver; antiaircraft artillery defenses, demanding minimum time exposure of the attacking force in order to keep losses down; and finally, time limitations imposed on combat crew training after the war began. It was considered that enemy opposition made formation flying and formation attack a necessary tactical and technical procedure. **Bombing patterns resulted -- only a portion of which could fall on small precision targets.** The rest spilled over on adjacent plants, or built-up areas, or in open fields. Accuracy ranged from poor to excellent.** When visual conditions were favorable and flak defenses were not intense, bombing results were at their best. Unfortunately, the major portion of bombing operations over Germany had to be conducted under weather and battle conditions that restricted bombing technique, and accuracy suffered accordingly. Conventionally the air forces designated as "the target area" a circle having a radius of 1000 feet around the aiming point of attack. While accuracy improved during the war, Survey studies show that, in the over-all, only about 20% of the bombs aimed at precision targets fell within this target area. A peak accuracy of 70% was reached for the month of February 1945. These are important facts for the reader to keep in mind, especially when considering the tonnages of bombs delivered by the air forces. Of necessity a far larger tonnage was carried than hit German installations. |
#52
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History Channel
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message m... Robert Sveinson wrote: How about the bombing of Prague when the USAAF was AIMING at Dresden. How about the bombing of several Swiss cities when AIMING at targets (supposedly) in Germany? You've confused target identification/navigation with bombing accuracy. AAAAH! The USAAF were in fact AIMING at the Swiss cities that they bombed. I seeeeeee! |
#53
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History Channel
"®i©ardo" wrote in message ... Steven P. McNicoll wrote: Robert Sveinson wrote: How about the bombing of Prague when the USAAF was AIMING at Dresden. How about the bombing of several Swiss cities when AIMING at targets (supposedly) in Germany? You've confused target identification/navigation with bombing accuracy. So any target will do, right one or wrong one, as long as it is bombed "accurately"? "Precision" is an integral part of the equation, in that it implies that the bomber crews knew where they were going and, having got there, knew what they had to do. That is NOT the situation with the bombing of Prague, Schaffhausen, Zurich and Basel. And these bomber fleets employed PATHFINDERS! -- Moving things in still pictures! |
#54
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History Channel
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message m... Robert Sveinson wrote: RAF accuracy was as good if not better than that of the USAAF if the target was vivible. Did the USAAF precisely hit any target such as the TIRPITZ, the Dortmund Ems canal, the Saumur Tunnel, various Gestapo buildings, the Antheor Viaduct, Amiens Prison? Yes. No! I have never heard of any! That you haven't heard of any does not mean it didn't occur, it means you're ignorant. And your list of targets like the Tirpitz, Dortmund Ems Canal, Saumur Tunnel, Antheor Viaduct, Amiens Prison and various Gestapo headquarters that the USAAF PRECISELY bombed is where? Keep in mind that 4 of the above targets were hit by Lancasters which carried ONLY 1 bomb, so they didn't use the *shotgun* method. |
#55
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History Channel
Talking about "The Sound Barrier" as a work of fiction showing the British
achieving supersonic flight, I seem to recall reading/hearing somewhere that in actual fact the British were well advanced in researching this and had designed and built an aeroplane - the Miles M52 I think - which could well have achieved this. Then the US and British Governments decided they would pool their research to achieve it. So the British handed over all their info to the US who then refused to hand over their info, due to "security reasons". The British did not proceed any further but the US continued on (now with the benefit of all the British research and design) and eventually produce the Bell X-1 - which looks suspiciously like the Miles M52 - and do the deed! For military movie fiction you can't "The Sound Barrier" showing the British being the first to achieve supersonic flight. I remember seeing "The Sound Barrier" in the year of its release, and my memories of it stretch back that far. If you have access to a VHS or DVD home version, please correct me ... but ... the film presents a disclaimer that it is a piece of fiction, and if despite that it seems more truthful than most works of fiction then that may be due to the skill of the director, David Lean; it was acknowledged in the film that the sound barrier had already been overcome by an American aviator, without, as I remember, any mention being made that the American aircraft was not jet- but rocket-powered; and the whole thing is really about Geoffrey de Havilland's fatal semi-success in the DH 108 Swallow, when he tickled Mach 1 but didn't survive. -- Moving things in still pictures! |
#56
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History Channel
"Graham Sheldon" wrote in message ... Talking about "The Sound Barrier" as a work of fiction showing the British achieving supersonic flight, I seem to recall reading/hearing somewhere that in actual fact the British were well advanced in researching this and had designed and built an aeroplane - the Miles M52 I think - which could well have achieved this. Then the US and British Governments decided they would pool their research to achieve it. So the British handed over all their info to the US who then refused to hand over their info, due to "security reasons". The British did not proceed any further but the US continued on (now with the benefit of all the British research and design) and eventually produce the Bell X-1 - which looks suspiciously like the Miles M52 - and do the deed! Yes that was the case. The British were PROMISED all the data and designs gained by US experiments in this field, but wonder of wonders the British got NOTHING. |
#57
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History Channel
Graham Sheldon wrote:
Talking about "The Sound Barrier" as a work of fiction showing the British achieving supersonic flight, I seem to recall reading/hearing somewhere that in actual fact the British were well advanced in researching this and had designed and built an aeroplane - the Miles M52 I think - which could well have achieved this. Then the US and British Governments decided they would pool their research to achieve it. So the British handed over all their info to the US who then refused to hand over their info, due to "security reasons". The British did not proceed any further but the US continued on (now with the benefit of all the British research and design) and eventually produce the Bell X-1 - which looks suspiciously like the Miles M52 - and do the deed! Sounds a bit like the atomic bomb development with Britain and Canada having been major contributors, then being told to p*ss off by the Yanks. The British, using Canadian uranium and plutonium and the worlds largest stockpile of heavy water and hydro-electric power, had actually done the majority of the leg-work already, leaving the American-funded Manhatten Project to do the rest. President Truman the reneged on FDR's promise to Churchill to share the atom bombs. For military movie fiction you can't "The Sound Barrier" showing the British being the first to achieve supersonic flight. I remember seeing "The Sound Barrier" in the year of its release, and my memories of it stretch back that far. If you have access to a VHS or DVD home version, please correct me ... but ... the film presents a disclaimer that it is a piece of fiction, and if despite that it seems more truthful than most works of fiction then that may be due to the skill of the director, David Lean; it was acknowledged in the film that the sound barrier had already been overcome by an American aviator, without, as I remember, any mention being made that the American aircraft was not jet- but rocket-powered; and the whole thing is really about Geoffrey de Havilland's fatal semi-success in the DH 108 Swallow, when he tickled Mach 1 but didn't survive. -- Moving things in still pictures! -- Moving things in still pictures! |
#58
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History Channel
"®i©ardo" wrote in message ... Graham Sheldon wrote: Talking about "The Sound Barrier" as a work of fiction showing the British achieving supersonic flight, I seem to recall reading/hearing somewhere that in actual fact the British were well advanced in researching this and had designed and built an aeroplane - the Miles M52 I think - which could well have achieved this. Then the US and British Governments decided they would pool their research to achieve it. So the British handed over all their info to the US who then refused to hand over their info, due to "security reasons". The British did not proceed any further but the US continued on (now with the benefit of all the British research and design) and eventually produce the Bell X-1 - which looks suspiciously like the Miles M52 - and do the deed! Sounds a bit like the atomic bomb development with Britain and Canada having been major contributors, then being told to p*ss off by the Yanks. The British, using Canadian uranium and plutonium and the worlds largest stockpile of heavy water and hydro-electric power, had actually done the majority of the leg-work already, leaving the American-funded Manhatten Project to do the rest. President Truman the reneged on FDR's promise to Churchill to share the atom bombs. For military movie fiction you can't "The Sound Barrier" showing the British being the first to achieve supersonic flight. I remember seeing "The Sound Barrier" in the year of its release, and my memories of it stretch back that far. If you have access to a VHS or DVD home version, please correct me ... but ... the film presents a disclaimer that it is a piece of fiction, and if despite that it seems more truthful than most works of fiction then that may be due to the skill of the director, David Lean; it was acknowledged in the film that the sound barrier had already been overcome by an American aviator, without, as I remember, any mention being made that the American aircraft was not jet- but rocket-powered; and the whole thing is really about Geoffrey de Havilland's fatal semi-success in the DH 108 Swallow, when he tickled Mach 1 but didn't survive. -- Moving things in still pictures! -- Moving things in still pictures! I seem to remember also after WW2 the British were well advanced with jet engine technology and virtually handed all the plans, etc over for the Russians to have a look at. And then the world was shocked when the Mig-15 showed up in Korea with a Russian copy of the British jet engine. What is it with the poms? And then there was Duncan Sands (or however he spells it) and his infamous white paper which destroyed the British aero industry almost overnight... |
#59
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History Channel
"Graham Sheldon" wrote in message ... Talking about "The Sound Barrier" as a work of fiction showing the British achieving supersonic flight, I seem to recall reading/hearing somewhere that in actual fact the British were well advanced in researching this and had designed and built an aeroplane - the Miles M52 I think - which could well have achieved this. Then the US and British Governments decided they would pool their research to achieve it. So the British handed over all their info to the US who then refused to hand over their info, due to "security reasons". The British did not proceed any further but the US continued on (now with the benefit of all the British research and design) and eventually produce the Bell X-1 - which looks suspiciously like the Miles M52 - and do the deed! http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question...y/q0198a.shtml Design of the M.52 was nearly complete by 1944, and the UK government approved the construction of three prototypes. By the end of World War II in mid-1945, the first prototype was over half-built and may have been ready to begin flight testing within a year. Unfortunately, a new government had been elected in 1945 when conservative Prime Minister Winston Churchill was defeated by the Labour party. The new Labour government felt that too much money was being wasted on defense-related projects now that the war had been won, and widespread funding cuts were instituted. One of the projects eliminated was the M.52, cancelled in February 1946 by Sir Ben Lockspeiser, the Director of Scientific Research For military movie fiction you can't "The Sound Barrier" showing the British being the first to achieve supersonic flight. I remember seeing "The Sound Barrier" in the year of its release, and my memories of it stretch back that far. If you have access to a VHS or DVD home version, please correct me ... but ... the film presents a disclaimer that it is a piece of fiction, and if despite that it seems more truthful than most works of fiction then that may be due to the skill of the director, David Lean; it was acknowledged in the film that the sound barrier had already been overcome by an American aviator, without, as I remember, any mention being made that the American aircraft was not jet- but rocket-powered; and the whole thing is really about Geoffrey de Havilland's fatal semi-success in the DH 108 Swallow, when he tickled Mach 1 but didn't survive. -- Moving things in still pictures! |
#60
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History Channel
"Mitchell Holman" wrote in message ... The big US propaganda machine was even at work in WWW2, possibly starting with "Objective, Burma", to belittle the endeavours of their allies, or to ignore them completely. Was there a likewise "big British propoganda machine" to credit their country with feats done by Americans, as in The Sound Barrier and Bridge Over River Kwai? Tell us air brush "master" about the american contribution to the building of the Burma-Thailand railway including the bridges. Feel free to consult the tables below. http://www.gunplot.net/kwairailway/s...marailway.html |
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