AND THE KIS CRUISER ROUNDS THE PYLON...

I haven't seen the Zenith CH-640 mentioned in this thread yet.
www.zenair.com As you proabaly know, every plane is the result of
comprimises. The base price is $24,800, $35,190 for quick build. About
the only comprimize from your point would be to replace your knot
specification with MPH. Takeoff roll is listed at 990 ft. at gross. It
would be nice if it had more modern looking cooling inlets, but other
than those items it looks like something you may want to consider.


Paul Folbrecht wrote:
Jean-Paul,

Really just not what I'm looking for. I'm not looking for a STOL
aircraft. The 801 is too slow.

Have you had a look at the Zenith CH-801. Great plane, easy to built and
cheap compared to the RV's.
Just an opinion

I know you can't get an RV-10 for $85K. Used engine, and bare min VFR
panel, maybe. Neither can you get an IFR Velocity XL for that. But I
think you can build an IFR Velocity SE or KIS Cruiser for that amount,
fixed-pitch prop, new engine.

"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
...

You are sadly mistaken if you think that there is a four seater IFR

platform

with 3 hours (really almost 4) of fuel flying 150 KTAS out there. Just

Well, I suppose, then, that the RV-10 and Velocity XL do not actually
exist. Or that their designers GREATLY exaggerate their performance
figures. Or that, based on your definition of an IFR platform (I can
only imagine), they don't qualify.


For $85K you are dreaming.

Clyde Torres

I'm looking, and admit I'm intrigued, though my gut feeling is that this
may be an aircraft that I might just not be completely happy with. I
plan on quite likely flying what I build for a very long time (I'm 34),
so I want to build exactly what I want. But thanks, as I wasn't aware
of this design.

P.S. Back when I was looking for a two-seater I did consider the XL, but
rejected it in favor of an RV as a, well, just all-around better
airplane (with far better performance). But while an XL is really no
cheaper to build than an RV-9, the 640 does offer the big advantage (as
I see it) over the RV-10 as accepting a 4-cyl engine and FP prop.

Paul Dow wrote:

I haven't seen the Zenith CH-640 mentioned in this thread yet.
www.zenair.com As you proabaly know, every plane is the result of
comprimises. The base price is $24,800, $35,190 for quick build. About
the only comprimize from your point would be to replace your knot
specification with MPH. Takeoff roll is listed at 990 ft. at gross. It
would be nice if it had more modern looking cooling inlets, but other
than those items it looks like something you may want to consider.


Paul Folbrecht wrote:

Jean-Paul,

Really just not what I'm looking for. I'm not looking for a STOL
aircraft. The 801 is too slow.

Have you had a look at the Zenith CH-801. Great plane, easy to built and
cheap compared to the RV's.
Just an opinion

Hey, pls accept my apology for the "personal" (though not serious)
comments in my previous reply to you. It was a bit stronger than it
needed to be, and on Christmas yet. I'm bad.

Clyde Torres wrote:

"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
...

You are sadly mistaken if you think that there is a four seater IFR

platform

with 3 hours (really almost 4) of fuel flying 150 KTAS out there. Just

Well, I suppose, then, that the RV-10 and Velocity XL do not actually
exist. Or that their designers GREATLY exaggerate their performance
figures. Or that, based on your definition of an IFR platform (I can
only imagine), they don't qualify.


For $85K you are dreaming.

Clyde Torres

Paul, apologies accepted on the other email.

My point is, though, that $85K is a low number for a true four seater IFR
platform that performs the way you want it to. The numbers I've seen are
way up in the $135K range. Every bird I've seen that used an O-360/O-320
and had four seats was not really a four seater capable of carrying four
people comfortably with some bags and enough fuel to fly four hours. You
need a bigger airframe and a bigger engine, thus driving the costs up.
Every person that has done this analysis before you either gave up or
settled for a two person airplane that has four seats. Many of these
aircraft are wonderful aircraft - better than production models. They will
haul two people very comfortably with plenty of room for fuel and bags, but
as soon as you put two people in the back, you are very limited in what you
can carry.

Clyde


"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
...
I know you can't get an RV-10 for $85K. Used engine, and bare min VFR
panel, maybe. Neither can you get an IFR Velocity XL for that. But I
think you can build an IFR Velocity SE or KIS Cruiser for that amount,
fixed-pitch prop, new engine.

"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
...

You are sadly mistaken if you think that there is a four seater IFR

platform

with 3 hours (really almost 4) of fuel flying 150 KTAS out there.
Just

Well, I suppose, then, that the RV-10 and Velocity XL do not actually
exist. Or that their designers GREATLY exaggerate their performance
figures. Or that, based on your definition of an IFR platform (I can
only imagine), they don't qualify.


For $85K you are dreaming.

Clyde Torres

Bob,

Thanks. I'm already familiar with your excellent site. Makes up for
the lack of other builder's KIS sites, to be sure.



Paul,

One of the biggest selling points for the KIS Cruiser, at least for me, was the
size of the aircraft in comparison to most of the other four place aircraft.
It is not a big aircraft, just a bit larger than an RV-6 but will take four
adults in relative comfort. (Better than many production 4-place aircraft.) It
would not however handle four adults and a large baggage load as well.

Like you, I wanted a plane that gave me a good compromise between speed,
comfort, passenger load, and economy. The Cruiser met those goals very well.
It is a true four place from load capacity but isn't overly spacious in the
back seat but is very comfortable for those average four passenger flights.
The biggest point for me was that it could carry my wife and me along with all
the baggage we would ever want to haul around which is saying a lot for my
wife. BG The O-360, or IO-360 is easily available and offers good economy
when combined with the cruise speed of the Cruiser. The wing loading makes for
good IFR platform as well.

In any case, I would agree that the KIS Cruiser would be a good choice and it
not difficult to build either.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

You are sadly mistaken if you think that there is a four seater IFR
platform
with 3 hours (really almost 4) of fuel flying 150 KTAS out there. Just

Well, I suppose, then, that the RV-10 and Velocity XL do not actually
exist. Or that their designers GREATLY exaggerate their performance
figures. Or that, based on your definition of an IFR platform (I can
only imagine), they don't qualify.


They are just illusions and don't really exist. Damn good looking illusions
though.

mentioning an airplane like the KIS Cruiser will make guys jump in and
start
trying to sell you on it regardless of whether it can meet your needs or
not. Their objective, just like the others, is to get you to go with what
they are building. Later on you will find out that it really doesn't meet
your mission profile. In fact, your mission profile doesn't meet your

A devious, devious, bunch, to be sure. I hear many of them sell their
own children to finance their aircraft.


I DID NOT! Nobody would give me what I was asking...they all wanted me to pay
to take them off my hands. BG

objectives above, especially the $85K sticker shock. If you are worried
about the cost of an exhaust valve on a 152, then you need to stick to RC
model airplanes, much less a non-existent four seater.

You think it makes sense that an exhaust valve costs $250? You think
that is perfectly reasonable and logical?

Having to replace all the valves, unexpectedly, isn't something I
relished, but most certainly something I was capable of covering. Yes,
that's aviation. Actually, I fly much _less_ airplane than I can afford.

There are many guys out there that started building airplanes with good
intentions and found out that they just couldn't afford one or had the time
to build it. They are the vast majority in fact. You either need to face
reality now or get ready to face it in a few years when you're selling off
your uncompleted project.

You need to see a therapist and get to the bottom of your pessimistic,
antisocial attitude. You live for this type of thing, don't you?

BTW, a decent IFR platform isn't just a stable airplane that can be flown
hands off for a few seconds. It involves an instrument package that is
going to cost you more than you think.

Oh, yes, you're right, I have not an inkling. I've done no research
whatsoever. The figure of $20,000 for a decent panel that I mentioned
is completely off the wall. Even though the entirely usable, real-world
IFR panel I have in my Cessna 152 (dual King nav/coms, one with GS,
Garmin 340 w/markers, VFR GPS), right now, cost half of that.

Merry Christmas!

Actually, the IFR panel for a homebuilt will cost a whole lot less than one for
a production aircraft.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
...
You are sadly mistaken if you think that there is a four seater IFR
platform
with 3 hours (really almost 4) of fuel flying 150 KTAS out there. Just

Well, I suppose, then, that the RV-10 and Velocity XL do not actually
exist. Or that their designers GREATLY exaggerate their performance
figures. Or that, based on your definition of an IFR platform (I can
only imagine), they don't qualify.

For $85K you are dreaming.

Clyde Torres

Wrong...very possible especially for the RV-10 but probably not for you.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

Paul, apologies accepted on the other email.

My point is, though, that $85K is a low number for a true four seater IFR
platform that performs the way you want it to. The numbers I've seen are
way up in the $135K range.

Don't know who's numbers you have seen but yes, the $135K range is not unusual
but not required either. The difference is in the details and I do mean in the
details. If you do the work yourself and don't have the panel custom
fabricated, custom interiors, constant speed props, FADEC systems, and a host
of other very expensive options, the costs come down considerably. So before
you say it "can't" be done, do the detail research to determine the cost
breakdown and what could be done.

Every bird I've seen that used an O-360/O-320
and had four seats was not really a four seater capable of carrying four
people comfortably with some bags and enough fuel to fly four hours.

You have seen and detailed all the four place aircraft? Don't believe so.

You need a bigger airframe and a bigger engine, thus driving the costs up.

Depends on mission profile. If you intend to fly four and a lot of baggage all
the time, I might agree but if that is NOT your mission, I totally disagree.

Every person that has done this analysis before you either gave up or
settled for a two person airplane that has four seats.

TOTALLY WRONG! And you don't speak for everyone. By the way, I have flown two
different KIS Cruisers with four people on board and in one case it was also
loaded with baggage. Both flights were fairly comfortable and the performance
was great.

Many of these
aircraft are wonderful aircraft - better than production models. They will
haul two people very comfortably with plenty of room for fuel and bags, but
as soon as you put two people in the back, you are very limited in what you
can carry.

Clyde

Hell, I know of many twins that suffer the same fate so should we say that all
twins are equally limited? Sorry Clyde but you need to do a little more
homework.

Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

"RobertR237" wrote in message
...
You are sadly mistaken if you think that there is a four seater IFR
platform
with 3 hours (really almost 4) of fuel flying 150 KTAS out there. Just
mentioning an airplane like the KIS Cruiser will make guys jump in and
start
trying to sell you on it regardless of whether it can meet your needs or
not. Their objective, just like the others, is to get you to go with
what
they are building. Later on you will find out that it really doesn't
meet
your mission profile. In fact, your mission profile doesn't meet your
objectives above, especially the $85K sticker shock. If you are worried
about the cost of an exhaust valve on a 152, then you need to stick to RC
model airplanes, much less a non-existent four seater.


Sorry Clyde, but you don't know what you are talking about and it shows.

There are many guys out there that started building airplanes with good
intentions and found out that they just couldn't afford one or had the
time
to build it. They are the vast majority in fact. You either need to
face
reality now or get ready to face it in a few years when you're selling
off
your uncompleted project.


Gee, tell that to the thousands who are flying their homebuilts. Yes,
some
underestimate the cost but the $85K is very doable for the KIS Cruiser and
if
you don't believe me, I believe Dave Tate who commented earlier can add
clarification.

BTW, a decent IFR platform isn't just a stable airplane that can be flown
hands off for a few seconds. It involves an instrument package that is
going to cost you more than you think.

Clyde Torres

Well Clyde, why don't you inform us all on the details of what you think
or are
you just proficient and saying it can't be done.

Paul, here is an example of a person who is trying very hard to sell you on
what he is building. If you buy into it, you will find that you will not be
able to build what will meet your stated mission profile for $85K.
Referring to another fellow builder to add clarification is an example of
baiting you to build what they are building. If you really want to quantify
what I am talking about, take them up on it. Don't ask a builder, though.
Ask one who has built and is flying a platform similar to what you want. If
he is flying avionics from the 1980s, they will be prone to failures and in
general be maintenance headaches. If you value the lives of yourself and
your family, select avionics that are more up to date and in line with
today's navigational aids. Don't get LORAN, get an IFR approved GPS for
example. Get a six pack that is recommended for IFR work and get good ones.
If you go cheap on this stuff, you will be putting yourself and your family
in peril. Once you price what a very good IFR avionics/instrument package
costs, you will begin to understand and appreciate the real cost of an IFR
platform. And that's just a beginning. Surely you can buy a mid-life
engine and run it for a while. Nothing wrong with that. But earlier you
mentioned the DeltaHawk or an XP360. Have you priced those engines lately?
As I said earlier, to get a real four seater, you will have to move up to a
bigger engine than that, because the airframe will be bigger. It's just a
basic fact of life that you cannot get a true four seater to carry bags and
fuel for a decent long distance flight for $85K. As this poster said in an
earlier email, he can carry himself and his wife and their bags but that's
about it. The KIS SC is a wonderful airplane for that specific purpose, but
it is NOT a true four seater with bag capability (unless you're calling your
wife a bag) and long distance capability at 150 TAS with a decent IFR panel
for $85K. It's just not possible. Don't take a builder's word for it.
Challenge someone who is flying such a platform and quantify the
performance, the quality of instruments and engine, and how much money he
has in it. I guarantee you that it will not add up as you think.

Yep, I know I sound like the Grinch, but I am just trying to set you
straight.

Clyde Torres