AND THE KIS CRUISER ROUNDS THE PYLON...

RobertR237 wrote:

You are sadly mistaken if you think that there is a four seater IFR

platform

with 3 hours (really almost 4) of fuel flying 150 KTAS out there. Just

Well, I suppose, then, that the RV-10 and Velocity XL do not actually
exist. Or that their designers GREATLY exaggerate their performance
figures. Or that, based on your definition of an IFR platform (I can
only imagine), they don't qualify.



They are just illusions and don't really exist. Damn good looking illusions
though.


mentioning an airplane like the KIS Cruiser will make guys jump in and

start

trying to sell you on it regardless of whether it can meet your needs or
not. Their objective, just like the others, is to get you to go with what
they are building. Later on you will find out that it really doesn't meet
your mission profile. In fact, your mission profile doesn't meet your

A devious, devious, bunch, to be sure. I hear many of them sell their
own children to finance their aircraft.



I DID NOT! Nobody would give me what I was asking...they all wanted me to pay
to take them off my hands. BG

objectives above, especially the $85K sticker shock. If you are worried
about the cost of an exhaust valve on a 152, then you need to stick to RC
model airplanes, much less a non-existent four seater.

You think it makes sense that an exhaust valve costs $250? You think
that is perfectly reasonable and logical?

Having to replace all the valves, unexpectedly, isn't something I
relished, but most certainly something I was capable of covering. Yes,
that's aviation. Actually, I fly much _less_ airplane than I can afford.


There are many guys out there that started building airplanes with good
intentions and found out that they just couldn't afford one or had the time
to build it. They are the vast majority in fact. You either need to face
reality now or get ready to face it in a few years when you're selling off
your uncompleted project.

You need to see a therapist and get to the bottom of your pessimistic,
antisocial attitude. You live for this type of thing, don't you?


BTW, a decent IFR platform isn't just a stable airplane that can be flown
hands off for a few seconds. It involves an instrument package that is
going to cost you more than you think.

Oh, yes, you're right, I have not an inkling. I've done no research
whatsoever. The figure of $20,000 for a decent panel that I mentioned
is completely off the wall. Even though the entirely usable, real-world
IFR panel I have in my Cessna 152 (dual King nav/coms, one with GS,
Garmin 340 w/markers, VFR GPS), right now, cost half of that.

Merry Christmas!


Actually, the IFR panel for a homebuilt will cost a whole lot less than one for
a production aircraft.

Yes, how much does a compass, turn coordinator and one nav/comm cost
anyway? :-)


Matt

Bob Reed is correct.

$85K is very reasonable for the KIS Cruiser. Mine, equipped with factory new
Lycoming O-360 was considerably less that because I went with the old
fashioned gyros and steam gauges in the instrument panel that I've grown
accustomed to over the past 40 years of flying.

Bob Anderson, who recently completed his KIS Cruiser (and won the prize at
Oshkosh last sumer) probably spent that much because of all the goodies in
the panel, such as glass cockpit, panel mount GPS, angle of attack meter etc
as well as professionally designed interior upholstery.

Dave Tate Serial #4052 260 hrs TT


"RobertR237" wrote in message
...

Gee, tell that to the thousands who are flying their homebuilts. Yes,
some
underestimate the cost but the $85K is very doable for the KIS Cruiser and
if
you don't believe me, I believe Dave Tate who commented earlier can add
clarification.
Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

"...The wing loading makes for good IFR platform as well. ..."
How is wing loading related to IFR?

wrote:
"...The wing loading makes for good IFR platform as well. ..."
How is wing loading related to IFR?


A higher wing loading generally translates to a better ride in turbulence.


Matt

Paul, here is an example of a person who is trying very hard to sell you on
what he is building. If you buy into it, you will find that you will not be
able to build what will meet your stated mission profile for $85K.

And you are the classic example of the pundits who are always setting on the
sideline saying "It can't be done because YOU can't do it."

Referring to another fellow builder to add clarification is an example of
baiting you to build what they are building. If you really want to quantify
what I am talking about, take them up on it. Don't ask a builder, though.
Ask one who has built and is flying a platform similar to what you want.

Sorry Clyde but that is exactly what I suggested that he do, in fact, I
suggested that he join the builders group which includes a number of builders
who have already completed their aircraft and are quite happy with them.


If he is flying avionics from the 1980s, they will be prone to failures and in
general be maintenance headaches. If you value the lives of yourself and
your family, select avionics that are more up to date and in line with
today's navigational aids. Don't get LORAN, get an IFR approved GPS for
example. Get a six pack that is recommended for IFR work and get good ones.

Wow, now why didn't the rest of us think of that?

If you go cheap on this stuff, you will be putting yourself and your family
in peril. Once you price what a very good IFR avionics/instrument package
costs, you will begin to understand and appreciate the real cost of an IFR
platform. And that's just a beginning. Surely you can buy a mid-life
engine and run it for a while. Nothing wrong with that. But earlier you
mentioned the DeltaHawk or an XP360. Have you priced those engines lately?

Well why don't you tell us the price, I happen to know it and have purchased a
new one so I can tell you they are not cheap.

As I said earlier, to get a real four seater, you will have to move up to a
bigger engine than that, because the airframe will be bigger. It's just a
basic fact of life that you cannot get a true four seater to carry bags and
fuel for a decent long distance flight for $85K. As this poster said in an
earlier email, he can carry himself and his wife and their bags but that's
about it. The KIS SC is a wonderful airplane for that specific purpose, but
it is NOT a true four seater with bag capability (unless you're calling your
wife a bag) and long distance capability at 150 TAS with a decent IFR panel
for $85K. It's just not possible. Don't take a builder's word for it.

Yes, don't take a builders word for it, take the word of the guy who probably
hasn't built anything beyond a model airplane or you can contact some of the
builders who are already flying their aircraft and find out how much they paid
and what their expenses were and what extras they added.

Challenge someone who is flying such a platform and quantify the
performance, the quality of instruments and engine, and how much money he
has in it. I guarantee you that it will not add up as you think.

Yep, I know I sound like the Grinch, but I am just trying to set you
straight.

Clyde Torres


Prove it!

Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

Merry Christmas!


Actually, the IFR panel for a homebuilt will cost a whole lot less than one
for
a production aircraft.

Yes, how much does a compass, turn coordinator and one nav/comm cost
anyway? :-)


While that may be the minimum required for IFR, I don't think I would want to
limit myself to that. The panel will run upwards of $18k for a good IFR panel.
I could probably build out a panel with the same capabilities of most
available used production aircraft for around $12k. The newer glass panels and
top of the line avionics will run you closer to $25k. As I said in another
post, the difference is in the details and how much of the work you do
yourself.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

"...The wing loading makes for good IFR platform as well. ..."
How is wing loading related to IFR?



A plane with very light wing loading tends to be more affected by turbulence
and will require more attention to flying.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

Bob Reed is correct.

$85K is very reasonable for the KIS Cruiser. Mine, equipped with factory new
Lycoming O-360 was considerably less that because I went with the old
fashioned gyros and steam gauges in the instrument panel that I've grown
accustomed to over the past 40 years of flying.

Bob Anderson, who recently completed his KIS Cruiser (and won the prize at
Oshkosh last sumer) probably spent that much because of all the goodies in
the panel, such as glass cockpit, panel mount GPS, angle of attack meter etc
as well as professionally designed interior upholstery.

Dave Tate Serial #4052 260 hrs TT


Thanks Dave, I know that yours is not the only Cruiser to be completed for
under $85k but you are the only other member of the KIS builders who
participates in this forum. Mine will not come in at under $85k, (under $90k)
but I have also spent more for my FADEC equiped engine ($27k), the Blue
Mountain EFIS, dual axis autopilot, and several other options which pushed the
price up some. Even at that, I am including the additional costs for equipment
that I bought and then sold for less than I paid because I decided on something
else.

The important point is that the cost is in the builders control and need NOT
result in expenditures in the over $100k range or over $85k if that is your
budget. Your plane is a perfect example of that and anyone who has seen your
plane also knows that you didn't compromise on safety to do so.

Finally, I must apologize for the tone of my replies to Clyde but it really
does **** me off when people jump into a discussion with comments that are
clearly not based on facts and direct experience. I don't have anything to
gain by trying to convince someone else to build the same plane I am building.
In fact, I have been brutally honest in my comments to some potiential builders
over the years. Based on Pauls comments, it appears that he has done his
homework and the mission profile he outlined does fit the Cruiser. I believe
that Cruiser will fit his requirements in every way and I will offer all
possible assistance to him during the construction process. I made the same
offer to Dave Tate and several other KIS builders over the last few years and
several have taken me up of that offer. That is the same offer I am making to
Paul and it has nothing to do with some personal gain.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

RobertR237 wrote:
Merry Christmas!


Actually, the IFR panel for a homebuilt will cost a whole lot less than one

for

a production aircraft.

Yes, how much does a compass, turn coordinator and one nav/comm cost
anyway? :-)



While that may be the minimum required for IFR, I don't think I would want to
limit myself to that. The panel will run upwards of $18k for a good IFR panel.
I could probably build out a panel with the same capabilities of most
available used production aircraft for around $12k. The newer glass panels and
top of the line avionics will run you closer to $25k. As I said in another
post, the difference is in the details and how much of the work you do
yourself.

Yes, but my point is that an "IFR panel" doesn't mean it has to be a
glass cockpit with every bell and whistle available. Some folks seem to
forget that we were flying IFR long before GPS and glass cockpits ... or
even before VORs for that matter.


Matt

I have installed avionics in a previous life, and it was under the
inpretion that the Garmin 400 series, was the best choose for an IFR
package (i mostly installed the GNS-430), from what i understand all u
need is an Encoder and the Garmin GNS-480, found o0n on Spruce.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...rmingns480.php


Matt Whiting wrote:
RobertR237 wrote:
Merry Christmas!


Actually, the IFR panel for a homebuilt will cost a whole lot less
than one

for

a production aircraft.

Yes, how much does a compass, turn coordinator and one nav/comm
cost
anyway? :-)



While that may be the minimum required for IFR, I don't think I
would want to
limit myself to that. The panel will run upwards of $18k for a
good IFR panel.
I could probably build out a panel with the same capabilities of
most
available used production aircraft for around $12k. The newer
glass panels and
top of the line avionics will run you closer to $25k. As I said in
another
post, the difference is in the details and how much of the work you
do
yourself.

Yes, but my point is that an "IFR panel" doesn't mean it has to be a
glass cockpit with every bell and whistle available. Some folks seem
to
forget that we were flying IFR long before GPS and glass cockpits ...
or
even before VORs for that matter.


Matt