PC flight simulators

S Widewing what i wright here was Exactly for Aces High.
Im in 2 years now =20
What you say for a fight in DA between Fester and a Real Top Gun pilot ?
It would be interesting
In AH i am *HadesEE* S
check 6

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 23:57:37 GMT, =
(Corey
C. Jordan) wrote:

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 02:13:42 GMT, (John) wrote:

You are missing something.
Yes if you take the feeling of the fly, a pc cant give you this =3D
feeling.
But there are other things, especialy in online simulation.
Your enemy is real humans. They are clever, they learn day by day,
they do immelmans,hi yo-yos,low yo-yos,scissors,barrels, you need
SA to the limits when you are in the meadle of 15 enemy fighters,
you need to know ballistics to shoot angles (WWII sim) you learn
wingman tactics,squadron tactics,bombing ,dogfighting, with no real =3D
planes,
BUT very near to the real ones.(flying characteristics).
One thing is real at the online sims. The feaver of the battle with =
your =3D
human
enemies. Real pilots use real tactics there with near to real planes.
Especialy in WWII sim's you dont fight with buttons. You fight with =
REAL
Energy Management tactics, all props are underpowered,Real T&B tactics,
and in general you need to Know Real Combat Manuvers and flying theory
to survive.And ofcourse you need to know your plane and your enemy =
plane.
And more than everything you need to know how to shoot this devil =
infrond
of you at 400y who never stay steady.
We miss the real feeling of the flight witch a pc cant give you. Yet.

Well John, in simple terms, you are completely incorrect.

Ever here of Aces High? That's a real-time WWII combat simulator/game =
where
you fly with and against other human pilots. You even have radio voice =
coms.

More than a few military pilots have tried Aces High and came away =
horrified
at the ACM skill and tactical knowledge of the individual =
players/pilots. In
simple terms, they got their asses kicked.

I challenge anyone reading this to download the software (it's free) and=
set up
an online account (first two weeks are free) and try you hand at it. =
That goes
for you former fighter jocks too. However, be prepared for the extremely=
steep
learning curve and some extraordinaily talented people.

Go to http://www.hitechcreations.com

Yeah, it's a game, but it's also an accurate simulation inmany =
respects....

Come on guys, I won't abuse you too much.

My regards,

Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.cradleofaviation.org

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 02:54:40 GMT, (John) wrote:

S Widewing what i wright here was Exactly for Aces High.
Im in 2 years now =20
What you say for a fight in DA between Fester and a Real Top Gun pilot ?
It would be interesting
In AH i am *HadesEE* S
check 6

Against any of the top guys in Aces High, I'd give any current Top Gun
pilot a maximum of 60 seconds after the merge before he's hanging in his
parachute wondering what had just happened. It's not easy coming into an
unfamiliar environment and having to compete against the best on the planet at
this type of simulation.

Remember, some of these guys have more than 10,000 hours of combat
sim time. That's why many real fighter jocks come in, figure they'll do well
and promptly cancel their account when they:

A) Realize that the learning curve is enormously steep.
B) Realize getting fully familiar with their chosen aircraft takes many hours
in it.
C) Learn the strengths and weaknesses of enemy aircraft (over 70 possible).
D) Having to gear up their Situational Awareness to survive in an environment

where 50 to 100 aircraft are within visual range.
E) Figure out that some fat guy sitting at a desk in Idaho has a better
understanding of ACM than they do.

Aces High can be a humbling experience for pilots and non-pilots alike. If they
stay around long enough to learn, they usually develop into excellent players.
Getting past the initial shock is the big hurdle. About 10% of the Aces High
community are actual pilots.

One more thing; this is not an arcade type flight sim. The flight physics are as
accurate as is possible. If you have no flying experience, or minimal simulator
experience, you'll be lucky to get off the ground, much less survive in a fight.
It takes time and patience just to master the basic skills to successfully
operate these virtual aircraft. Once you have some proficiency, then you can
begin to explore ACM and develop some skills. As to Navaids and general
navigation, you get a map and a compass. Fortunately, the map always shows your
location.. Otherwise you would have to navigate by landmarks.

My regards,

Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.cradleofaviation.org

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: PC flight simulators
From: "Scet"
Date: 11/18/03 10:28 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

been made using technology that is less than 2 years old?" You have no
idea
of the level of sophistication they have achieved, which includes
environmental conditions including weather and sea states. Remember Art,
these aren't made by Microsoft

I think the general subject was about PC's, not AirForce real simulators.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

That's right Art it is, and since it is, I'll ask this question for the
third time, have you seen any of the current, (as in less than 12 months
old,) PC sims in use, and if you have what and where was it? I can't help
but feel your evading the question.

Scet

Subject: PC flight simulators
From: "Scet"
Date: 11/19/03 10:14 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: PC flight simulators
From: "Scet"
Date: 11/18/03 10:28 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

been made using technology that is less than 2 years old?" You have no
idea
of the level of sophistication they have achieved, which includes
environmental conditions including weather and sea states. Remember Art,
these aren't made by Microsoft

I think the general subject was about PC's, not AirForce real simulators.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

That's right Art it is, and since it is, I'll ask this question for the
third time, have you seen any of the current, (as in less than 12 months
old,) PC sims in use, and if you have what and where was it? I can't help
but feel your evading the question.

Scet


The question and subject is the use of PC's to learn to fly. Your question
evades that issue and is therefore disengenious.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
During WW II we had a simulator at Lake Charles. It was a real B-26 Martin
Marauder truncated and mounted in a hanger. When youi climbed into it you
could
smell the cordite, urine, vomit and 100 octane.You strapped yourself in
and you
could smell the leather on the seats. It behaved llike a real plane in
every
sense including the feel of the controls, the operation of the Norden
bombsight
and the results of doing bomb runs in that simulator. Now that is a
simulator.

Damned, I didn't know they did full motion simulators in WWII.
It must have been, you said "it behaved like a real plane in every sense."

MSFS doesn''t quite cut it.. But in those years with a war on, flying was
a
serious life and death affair, especially in Marauders. . No nonsense
allowed.

"Corey C. Jordan" wrote

Against any of the top guys in Aces High, I'd give any current Top Gun
pilot a maximum of 60 seconds after the merge before he's hanging in his
parachute wondering what had just happened. It's not easy coming into an
unfamiliar environment and having to compete against the best on the
planet at
this type of simulation.

Remember, some of these guys have more than 10,000 hours of combat
sim time. That's why many real fighter jocks come in, figure they'll do
well
and promptly cancel their account when they:

A) Realize that the learning curve is enormously steep.
B) Realize getting fully familiar with their chosen aircraft takes many
hours
in it.
C) Learn the strengths and weaknesses of enemy aircraft (over 70
possible).
D) Having to gear up their Situational Awareness to survive in an
environment

where 50 to 100 aircraft are within visual range.
E) Figure out that some fat guy sitting at a desk in Idaho has a better
understanding of ACM than they do.

But put that same Aces High desk jock in a real fighter, and you'll have
some poor crew chief spending the afternoon cleaning puke out of the
cockpit. If the jet comes back.

Familiarity in the particular environment. Spend a few hundred (or thousand)
hours working a particular tool (be it jet or sim) and you might get pretty
good. But being good in one does not instantly translate into being good in
the other.

A true Top Gun, but Aces High neophyte is working off a different set of
reflexes and responses. And conversely, the Aces High ace has internalized
the peculiarities and limitations of the PC sim environment.

Pete

"Bjørnar Bolsøy" skrev i en meddelelse
...

I was wondering if anyone in this NG play simulators?
If so, which one? What's the best out there, currently.


Regards...

Hi

I must admit that I havent bothered reading all the post in this thread, as
most of them seems too be about the realisem of simulatores, so sorry if
this one has been mentioned before.

There is a new sim coming out this winter called Lock On - Mordern Air
Combat (LO-MAC). A demo is availble on their homepage on
http://www.lo-mac.com. The grafics look great, and there are several
different flyable aircrafts to choose from.

Regards
------------------------
Søren Augustesen
E-mail:
Homepage: http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/sore...sen/index.html

On 20 Nov 2003 02:47:43 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

When we climbed
into it the pilots went into the cockpit, and went through turning on all their
switches and starting and running up the engines as if for a real takeoff.

Real engines or simulated ones?

On course we had extensive flak
that shook the simulator violently.

How was that simulated? Hydraulics? How were the visuals of exploding
flak shells simulated?

We were jumped by fighterand returned
fire.

Cool... how were the visuals of the fighters done? Did you use real
guns t return the fire (I'm sure yur gunners needed something to aim
at)?

I
opened the vent and a strong relative wind blew the nose clear of smoke.

Interesting.. so your sim was mounted in some kind of wind channel?

I got on the intercom and asked Paul to hold us steady through the
run.
How could he do that? Did he also have visuals or was he relying on
instruments only?

I forgot that the simulator was pre-programed and there were certain things
that were going to happen that was beyond our control.

I see... pre-programmed. So you were more or less sitting in a movie
theatre, correct?

Interesting stuff... you'd love to see one of the custom cockpits that
have been built for the "game" MS Flight Simulator. These days people
are using cut-off Boeing-737 noses.


Bye
Andreas

Subject: PC flight simulators
From: Andreas Maurer
Date: 11/20/03 7:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On 20 Nov 2003 02:47:43 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

When we climbed
into it the pilots went into the cockpit, and went through turning on all
their
switches and starting and running up the engines as if for a real takeoff.

Real engines or simulated ones?

Simulated

On course we had extensive flak
that shook the simulator violently.

How was that simulated? Hydraulics? How were the visuals of exploding
flak shells simulated?



Hydraulics I think. We never saw wthe bursts only heard thenand felt the
concussion.


We were jumped by fighterand returned
fire.

Cool... how were the visuals of the fighters done? Did you use real
guns t return the fire (I'm sure yur gunners needed something to aim
at)?


Projected on a screen


opened the vent and a strong relative wind blew the nose clear of smoke.

Interesting.. so your sim was mounted in some kind of wind channel?

No. It was just a blower motor that went on when the flap was opened.

I got on the intercom and asked Paul to hold us steady through the
run.

How could he do that? Did he also have visuals or was he relying on
instruments only?

He could't.But I forgot that in the excitement of the realism. We laughed about
it later.

I forgot that the simulator was pre-programed and there were certain things
that were going to happen that was beyond our control.

I see... pre-programmed. So you were more or less sitting in a movie
theatre, correct?

Well in a sense yes.But how we navigated and bombed was not pre programmed. The
results were real scores in real time.

Interesting stuff... you'd love to see one of the custom cockpits that
have been built for the "game" MS Flight Simulator. These days people
are using cut-off Boeing-737 noses.


Yes I would. But it is not likely that I ever will.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

But put that same Aces High desk jock in a real fighter, and you'll have
some poor crew chief spending the afternoon cleaning puke out of the
cockpit. If the jet comes back.

Familiarity in the particular environment. Spend a few hundred (or thousand)
hours working a particular tool (be it jet or sim) and you might get pretty
good. But being good in one does not instantly translate into being good in
the other.

A true Top Gun, but Aces High neophyte is working off a different set of
reflexes and responses. And conversely, the Aces High ace has internalized
the peculiarities and limitations of the PC sim environment.

Pete

I would opine that the real value of MSFS for the neophyte would be the
ability to become familiar with navigation aids, switch ology, and general
characteristics. In particular, the navigation side is not too bad.

Al Minyard