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#21
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Subject: Were the Tuskeegee Airmen Wrong?
From: Stephen Harding Date: 2/12/04 5:39 AM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: ArtKramr wrote: reputation of this fine group of fighter pilots somewhat over-embellished with hollow accolade over the issue of "never losing a bomber"? Doesn't sound hollow to me. I guess you had to have been there.((:-)) If I had been there, I'd probably have been baking your bread! SMH Nice crisp crust please. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#22
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"Stephen Harding" wrote in message ... Krztalizer wrote: Was the 13th (??) AF in Italy, and the Tuskeegee Airmen in particular, following the wrong tactic? Is the reputation of this fine group of fighter pilots somewhat over-embellished with hollow accolade over the issue of "never losing a bomber"? I know more revelevent people will chime in here, but that accolade is not at all hollow. Their tactics meant that they followed the tactical definition of Escort Fighter far more accurately than some of the other groups, who were somewhat famous among bomber crews for failing to show up to cover their assignments. Bomber guys talk with literal dread when they mention missions where the escorts never arrived - the 303rd (?) BG was shredded after one such event and it happened to other heavy bomber groups as well. How could 'provided excellent coverage and defense against all enemy comers' be considered a hollow accolade? If you've come to the show to win the war, it's a "hollow accolade" in pointing to being adept at using the wrong tactics. It's one thing if you don't know better, like trying to dogfight Zeros in early 1942, but by 1944, weren't "the right" tactics in bomber "escort" known? Have I jumped the gun on what was known in the context of the times? Yes. Known as Monday morning quarterbacking. Brooks SMH |
#23
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"Stephen Harding" wrote in message ... George Z. Bush wrote: Was the 13th (??) AF in Italy, and the Tuskeegee Airmen in particular, following the wrong tactic? Is the reputation of this fine group of fighter pilots somewhat over-embellished with hollow accolade over the issue of "never losing a bomber"? 12th AF was in Italy.....13th AF in the Pacific, I believe. Knew that didn't quite sound right. Thanks George. BTW, was that "your" AF? 12th, and before you have to ask, I was in Troop Carrier flying goonies, which is why I stayed out of the discussion about the Tuskegee Airmen. George Z. |
#24
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"Stephen Harding" wrote in message ... Keith Willshaw wrote: "Stephen Harding" wrote in message Was the 13th (??) AF in Italy, and the Tuskeegee Airmen in particular, following the wrong tactic? Is the reputation of this fine group of fighter pilots somewhat over-embellished with hollow accolade over the issue of "never losing a bomber"? The command at the time seems to have been happy with them else they doubtless have issued other orders. No doubt true. I will presume that other fighter groups in the 12th were doing precisely the same thing (sticking with the bombers). In this case, and assuming going after the fighters to destroy them rather than sticking, *was the correct thing to do*, then someone higher up was responsible for escort implementation "error", at a time the 8th AF "knew better" (say early 1944). Thats assuming it was an error. Depending on the relative numbers of German versus Allied aircraft in the Italian theatre and a host of other factors it may well have been that the correct strategy was to stay with the bombers. Guess this all boils down to "what did leadership know and when did they know it?". Just so Keith |
#26
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"Stephen Harding" wrote in message ... Was B Davis the one who would dictate that fighters under his command would implement bomber escort by sticking with the bombers or was it an AF wide implementation order, done at a higher level than Group or Wing? Within general terms, I'd venture to say that it was from higher HQ. If every unit CO were able to define his own taskings, some would be left out. You can't have everyone doing the glamour missions. 8th AF, you do this 12th AF, you do that Tactics evolve with experience, but the general instructions flow downward. Pete |
#27
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Kevin Brooks wrote:
"Stephen Harding" wrote in message Have I jumped the gun on what was known in the context of the times? Yes. Known as Monday morning quarterbacking. I'll wait for some more opinions before I accept that. It's not yet clear to me that the tactic of "sticking with the bombers" was not known as the *wrong* tactic by early 1944. I'm not even certain that "following the LW down and destroying them" was considered the *right* tactic by the 8th AF at that time either. I *do* know that by 1944, the 8th had learned the tactic of bombers "fighting their way to the target and back" without escort was considered inappropriate. Doesn't mean the crews that implemented that tactic during 1942/43 were somehow inferior by any measure, to those implementing the more appropriate tactic (paradigm) later. SMH |
#28
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Stephen Harding wrote:
Was the 13th (??) AF in Italy, and the Tuskeegee Airmen in particular, following the wrong tactic? Is the reputation of this fine group of fighter pilots somewhat over-embellished with hollow accolade over the issue of "never losing a bomber"? None other than ace Robert S. Johnson spoke about how they made sure they were not drawn away from escort position in order to chase easy kills. In many instances the 56th FG would dispatch a single squadron or pair of flights in order to engage targets of opportunity (Luftwaffe fighters) while the rest of the group continued escorting the bombers along their route. The key is really not to get drawn away from the bombers you are charged with escorting, since catching up is sometimes not possible, and other times may be too late. ONLY after significant numbers of long range fighters were available were tactics changed to a roaming cover (Zemke fan, or Roving High Cover are two of the names used for this technique). All the first-hand accounts I have read stated that the suggestion was put forth by squadrons & groups, but was made policy by the major AF command. I don't know if their particular AF implemented it, or merely the 8th AF. I'd say that the Tuskeegee Airmen sacrificed their personal scores (only one pilot made ace, IIRC) in order to protect the bombers. Ultimately, it was the strategic bomber that made the difference instead of the fighter escort mission. I'd say it was the right move, although not a choice that was correct by a huge and obvious margin. Credit to them for their devotion. ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
#29
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Subject: Were the Tuskeegee Airmen Wrong?
From: Stephen Harding Date: 2/12/04 9:46 AM Pacific Standard Time *do* know that by 1944, the 8th had learned the tactic of bombers "fighting their way to the target and back" without escort was considered inappropriate. Inappropriate? Now there is an interesting word choice. (sigh) Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#30
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Subject: Were the Tuskeegee Airmen Wrong?
From: (John S. Shinal) Date: 2/12/04 9:49 AM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: Stephen Harding wrote: Was the 13th (??) AF in Italy, and the Tuskeegee Airmen in particular, following the wrong tactic? Is the reputation of this fine group of fighter pilots somewhat over-embellished with hollow accolade over the issue of "never losing a bomber"? None other than ace Robert S. Johnson spoke about how they made sure they were not drawn away from escort position in order to chase easy kills. In many instances the 56th FG would dispatch a single squadron or pair of flights in order to engage targets of opportunity (Luftwaffe fighters) while the rest of the group continued escorting the bombers along their route. The key is really not to get drawn away from the bombers you are charged with escorting, since catching up is sometimes not possible, and other times may be too late. ONLY after significant numbers of long range fighters were available were tactics changed to a roaming cover (Zemke fan, or Roving High Cover are two of the names used for this technique). All the first-hand accounts I have read stated that the suggestion was put forth by squadrons & groups, but was made policy by the major AF command. I don't know if their particular AF implemented it, or merely the 8th AF. I'd say that the Tuskeegee Airmen sacrificed their personal scores (only one pilot made ace, IIRC) in order to protect the bombers. Ultimately, it was the strategic bomber that made the difference instead of the fighter escort mission. I'd say it was the right move, although not a choice that was correct by a huge and obvious margin. Credit to them for their devotion. Ah a voice of reason at last. Thank you. As Churchill said," The fighters are our salvation, but the bombers alone provide the means of victory". Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
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