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SSA Contest Rules and Waiver for Nationals Now Posted



 
 
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  #41  
Old March 6th 20, 02:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default SSA Contest Rules and Waiver for Nationals Now Posted

I'd like to see ARHS allowed but an onboard camera required if you are consistently flying above cloud base.

That way, the safety feature is there, and if you can find a legal lift mechanism to get above cloud base you get to use it.

Having no camera footage would mean flying above cloud base is presumed cloud flying.
  #42  
Old March 6th 20, 02:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default SSA Contest Rules and Waiver for Nationals Now Posted

On Friday, March 6, 2020 at 8:13:16 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I'd like to see ARHS allowed but an onboard camera required if you are consistently flying above cloud base.

That way, the safety feature is there, and if you can find a legal lift mechanism to get above cloud base you get to use it.

Having no camera footage would mean flying above cloud base is presumed cloud flying.


Let's consider this thought in light of what it takes to run, score, and administer a contest.
At this time, scoring and associated administrated activities require a scorer, sometimes located remotely, and the CD. Flight evaluation is done almost 100% by the scoring program, commonly once set up, with no action required by the scorer.
The exception is when the program flags log for evaluation. This could be related to starts, turns, finishes, or airspace. My best guess is this happens on less than 5% of flights, and commonly almost none.
Evaluating multiple camera recordings each day would require huge numbers of hours of volunteer time.
I doubt any contest organizer would agree with this concept.
UH
  #43  
Old March 6th 20, 05:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default SSA Contest Rules and Waiver for Nationals Now Posted

Is cloud flying prevalent in sailplane races? I don’t think so, I can only remember two instances in the last 45 years. Is it serious? Potentially, very serious! I have a snapshot seared into my memory of a sailplane going straight down with a parachute above it! My thought was, glad that guy got out, OK..........turned out the parachute was from the other ship involved in the midair , the ship going straight down still contained its pilot desperately trying to exit the ship! He didn’t make it! The two ships were working the vail under a Cu..............you can figure out the rest!

The other suspected cloud flying occurred 6 years ago in a regionals. Thunderstorm day with a MAT called. Cloud base 8000’ with 50% cloud cover (cu’s). I was flying with the suspected perpetrator, we took one turnpoint, then headed for Truckee. About 10 miles north, I decided Truckee looked to be too risky because it’s 6000’ MSL and cloud base was 8000’. I took White House and turned north. The suspect kept heading for Truckee who claimed It and then flew on south going around Mt.. Rose then to Carson City where his trace flew straight as an arrow to Minden then straight back to Carson City.........at an altitude well above cloud base of 8000’. Was he flying in clouds? Seems clear to me, but I couldn’t prove that cloud base was 8000’ south of Truckee.

So, what, if anything should we do? I believe that cloud flying should be given the same attention and scrutiny as violating controlled airspace and briefed by the CD as such.

Just my 2 cents worth,
JJ
  #44  
Old March 7th 20, 01:03 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default SSA Contest Rules and Waiver for Nationals Now Posted

I've seen cloud flying at contests but rarely. Up against the wisps, sure. But rarely in the clouds. I do recall very clearly an incident back in the '70s (that's 1970s for you kids) when five of us were working up to cloudbase about 20 miles north of Cordele on the edge of a giant blue hole. The top guy went right up into the cloud and popped out the side a minute or so later on the correct heading. He made it home. The three guys I was with rolled out on course when we got to cloudbase. I stayed with them for a mile or two but was unhappy that we were betting everything on finding lift on the way home in what felt like dead air. So I did a 180 behind them, went back, and climbed up again. By then, the wind had drifted me closer and I had glide path. On the way back I heard excited chatter from the three ahead of me. It was a great moment for a 20-something kid as I passed over them, all down in a plowed field about a mile short. I got lucky; I could have been slow. I never said much about the guy who went into the cloud; certainly not a protest. I'm pretty sure the three guys with me saw him, too, but they must not have said anything. The offender was a nice guy, popular, not normally in contention for the lead so I think we just all let it go. Today, I'm not sure what I'd do.

In the old days, I saw turnpoint films that clearly didn't meet the requirement (the TP and photo target both in the frame shot at a shallow angle). I never protested it but it rankled me. Another pilot did protest another's film one day and it was upheld, but everyone felt awkward.

I also knew of one pilot, quite famous, who was reputed to announce a phantom start a few minutes after his real start when he heard a crowd hit the IP, hoping that the gate would re-up his start time in the confusion rather than admit they missed him. Don't know if it was true but I heard it enough times to wonder.

Few really wish to be a jerk and face the choice of reporting a violation or just grumbling quietly.

I do think that if pilots had the tech to creep up into the clouds, some would be tempted to use it. I've done enough 0/0 final glides (sorry, BB) to know that sometimes a few hundred feet can make a huge difference. Saying we can't enforce a rule 100% of the time is no reason not to put measures into place to make it more difficult for pilots to break that rule, so long as it's not an undue burden on the organizers.

On that subject, when Elmira mandated the use of stealth in FLARM at the 15M/Std. Nats a few years ago, we all had to submit a flight log evidencing compliance in our config files. AFAIK, it worked well. Actually, I thought stealth worked quite well at that contest but this isn't the thread to raise that subject again.

Chip Bearden
JB

  #45  
Old March 7th 20, 05:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Default SSA Contest Rules and Waiver for Nationals Now Posted

Really?Â* It's the cheater who's the jerk, not the one who plays by the
rules.

On 3/6/2020 5:03 PM, wrote:
Few really wish to be a jerk and face the choice of reporting a violation or just grumbling quietly.


--
Dan, 5J
  #46  
Old March 7th 20, 07:29 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default SSA Contest Rules and Waiver for Nationals Now Posted

Dan, I should have said "feel like a jerk." I think most of us would like Rules that insure fairness so we don't have to snap incriminating photos and forward them to the CD. Or file a formal protest against a competitor we might be having dinner with that night. I suspect that's one reason why the "Safety Box" at each contest allows anonymous complaints. On the other hand, many of us would have a problem with an anonymous complaint that we had ducked into a cloud affecting our score.

So we're back to the Rules again. I see at least two problems. First, a rule is unenforceable. Second, we have the means to enforce it but choose not to.

Maybe I'm just old school.

Chip Bearden
JB
  #47  
Old March 7th 20, 10:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
WaltWX[_2_]
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Default SSA Contest Rules and Waiver for Nationals Now Posted

Andy and all...

Here's a possible inexpensive hardware approach to detecting when an aircraft is in clouds or not... "Balloon-borne disposable radiometer for cloud detection"

https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/1.3685252

It is used on Radiosonde balloon soundings to detects being in cloud. I handed the information over to one the stewards at the 2012 WGC Uvalde. The paper and detailed design is mostly behind a pay wall. This idea could be used to add information onto an IGC recorder. Not easy... trying to implement this into our gliding competition systems. But, it has the potential advantage to giving a measured metric for identifying when gliders are in clouds.

Walter Rogers WX

  #48  
Old March 8th 20, 05:22 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
WaltWX[_2_]
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Default SSA Contest Rules and Waiver for Nationals Now Posted

Here's another reference to inexpensive, light and disposable sensors designed to detect when radiosonde balloon packages ascend in clouds. They accurately detect the cloud boundaries:

Measuring cloud properties from meteorological radiosondes

https://ams.confex.com/ams/14CLOUD14...per250270.html

Walt Rogers WX


  #49  
Old March 8th 20, 03:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Richard Pfiffner[_2_]
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Default SSA Contest Rules and Waiver for Nationals Now Posted

On Saturday, March 7, 2020 at 8:22:52 PM UTC-8, WaltWX wrote:
Here's another reference to inexpensive, light and disposable sensors designed to detect when radiosonde balloon packages ascend in clouds. They accurately detect the cloud boundaries:

Measuring cloud properties from meteorological radiosondes

https://ams.confex.com/ams/14CLOUD14...per250270.html

Walt Rogers WX



I found the instrument that may work. Low cost is relative but free shipping.

https://www.amazon.com/Solar-Light-P.../dp/B077Y88DPB

only $700 free it will fit on the instrument panel cover 1.8"X1.6".

Richard
 




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