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Bush 'Plans Iran Air Strike by August'



 
 
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  #141  
Old June 7th 08, 05:17 AM posted to sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,us.military.army
eatfastnoodle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 33
Default Bush 'Plans Iran Air Strike by August'

On Jun 7, 1:49*am, "Jeffrey Hamilton" wrote:
"eatfastnoodle" wrote in message



cheers....Jeff
You are too ideological,


Am I indeed ?


Yes, since you look at this problem solely through the perspective of
a westerner. You are talking about Chinese, billions of average zhangs
or wangs living and working in China their whole lives, not the kind
of Chinese you usually met in Canada or the US (even they don't tell
you what they really think, trust me)

as long as the Communists do a reasonable
good job,


Collapsing schools send a horrible message to the masses.
Define *reasonable job*.


Not really a big deal, again, don't just read news on New York Time.
Talk to Chinese, average Chinese. I personally feel jobs done by
propaganda department of Communist Party this time isn't as tacky as
before, still, it's way way way over the top. Nevertheless, if you
talk to real CHINESE, you will know Chinese government's response to
the earthquake won them big praise and greatly increased their
popularity.


its hold on power, Chinese people, whatever, will be just fine.


Without *freedom* how would we ever know ?


Well, you first need to learn to accept not all people think "freedom"
is the most important thing. Plus, as far as I know, most Chinese
believe they have ample freedom already. (personal freedom, not
political freedom to be sure, but most people simply don't give a damn
about which party is in power)


You may not know that it's much more likely for a Chinese to be
pro-government and anti-West after he/she is exposed to freedom of
expression.


Quite possible and if you are so sure of the Chinese people's preference for
the one-party Communist system, then it should be relatively easy to
determine if democracy is *more to their taste .

Should it not ?

*cheers....Jeff


They don't prefer Communist System, they just don't give a damn what
the system is as long as they make good money and they marry hot
girls. Is it that hard to understand?
Sure, if Democracy could give them more money and better lives, I'm
sure they will choose Democracy in a heartbeat. But beside Democracies
in Western Europe and North America (most of these countries because
rich and powerful when they weren't exactly the best example of
freedom and democracy), there aren't many success stories for
Democracy, on the other hand, there are plenty of screw-ups, right?
The much promoted (by US media at least, I don't know about what
Canadian media says)Indian economic miracle is seen as a joke by
Chinese, especially by those who have traveled to India. If you had
gone to the two countries, you would know comparing to an average
Chinese city, India's best and most beautiful city is a dirty dump.
If you want to promote democracy, at the very least, you should give
your audience a success story, Chinese people so far haven't seen a
success story.

BTW, there is also a "our *******" factor. In the mind of Chinese
people, Democracy may or may not be good, but the people who simply
can not shut up about how China should adopt democracy most definitely
have ulterior motives. Western Democracy preachers, if they really
want to promote Democracy in China, the best they could do is to shut
the hell up and just let Chinese history run its own course. They are
like Rev. Jeremiah Wright, the more they talk, the more damage they
will do to their cause.
  #142  
Old June 7th 08, 12:36 PM posted to sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,us.military.army
William Black[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 176
Default Tibet: was Bush 'Plans Iran Air Strike by August'


"PaPaPeng" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 18:19:57 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
wrote:

Stop religious persecution
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/

Every day, thousands and thousands of people around the world quietly
practice the prayer of Dorje Shugden.


Never having heard of this *Western Shugden Society* before, I did a
little
googling.

It appears this outfit is sponsered by the Peoples Republic of China.
Merely a tactic to try and tarnish the DL.


Neither have I heard of the Shugdens before this article. The commies
don't play this kind of game - sponsor religious factions. First of
all Beijing wouldn't know how to manipulate religious kooks. Secondly
such schemes will explode in any manipulator's face.


Well yes.

They don't know how to do it.

It does seem to be busy blowing up in their faces.

This one is so transparently dodgy it's frightening.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.



  #143  
Old June 7th 08, 12:41 PM posted to sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,us.military.army
William Black[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 176
Default Tibet: was Bush 'Plans Iran Air Strike by August'


"PaPaPeng" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 18:19:57 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
wrote:

Never having heard of this *Western Shugden Society* before, I did a
little
googling.

It appears this outfit is sponsered by the Peoples Republic of China.
Merely a tactic to try and tarnish the DL.



I expect your google turned up this story too?
===========================================

A quiet, middle-class café in Westminster, in the political heart of
London, is the last place you would expect to hear someone badmouthing
the Dalai Lama.


It's all sounding like a disinformation campaign.

I notice nobody from the real press has picked up the 'Spiked' story.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.




  #144  
Old June 9th 08, 06:34 PM posted to sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,us.military.army
JJS[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12
Default Bush 'Plans Iran Air Strike by August'

In article ,
wrote:

On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:08:31 -0700,
(JJS)
wrote:

So we are back to the "white man's burden" excuse again. Look
we both know that it doesn't matter what the life style of Tibet
is. This is all about power so why keep bringing up how good
this is for Tibet when is has nothing to do with helping Tibet.
Well I guess you could say that the Chinese are 'helping' themselves
to the resources of Tibet.



Geezee how many times did you have to repeat a grade before you got
your 3Rs right?



Take a deep breath and calm down. Youıre beginning to act childish.



Beijing already has all the power.



Which I have agreed is correct several times. Why repeat what we
have agreed to? Do I need to type it in capitals for you to
understand?


She doesn't need to prove anything
to anyone least of all to people like you.



Where did I say they had to prove anything to me?
Youıre becoming irrational.


Beijing has a National
Policy for Minorities of which Tibetans form a group that receives the
most attention.



Lucky for Tibet or should that be unlucky?


Belonging to a Chinese minority group brings useful
privileges such as being allowed to have more children and these
children have preferential admission to institutions of higher
learning, the passport to the good life. As such quite a number of
identifiable community groups seek Minority status.



You do realize donıt you that power over a group is maintained not
only with force but with privileges? This is pretty basic when
one group is trying to maintain control over another.



http://www.everyculture.com/Russia-E...to-China-Minor
ity-Policies.html

I made no claim that Beijing's Tibet policy is good for the Tibetans.



You say this so why keep bringing up how good it is for them?

"being allowed to have more children and these
children have preferential admission to institutions of higher
learning, the passport to the good life'"

To put it politely youıre being inconsistent.


What Beijing does is pragmatism. Its a damn lot chaper and easier to
pay displaced Tibetans to get by than it is to try to force feed them
ill thought out "Tibet" solutions. Your experience in the west had
seen many multi-million dollar welfare type attempts go to waste. All
those failures do is to reinforce the target group's sense of failure
and the futility of their lives. The smarter ones develop a penchant
to game the system for whatever dollars they can get before another
do-good project goes south.



It may surprise you but I agree.



Your responses so far is to patronize the Tibetans by saying that all
their problems can be solved if only Beijing cared.



Sigh. No I merely asked if more local control of their lives would work
out better for Tibet. You have a knack for distorting what I write.


In the same
breath you contradict yourself "if only Beijing would leave them alone
to work out something at their own pace and time" Tibetans will
achieve nirvana.



I didnıt write or insinuate that Tibet would reach ³nirvana². I asked if
it was possible for them to develop with less Chinese intervention than
we see today. You seem to have a low opinion of the people in Tibet.
Why it that?


You really have some personal issues to resolve
first.



Oh the irony!!! 8^D



That New Town resettlement for Tibetans displaced by climate change
actually tells many stories. There are no laws that keep them there.
There are no restrictions as to what work they can engage in. There
are no laws to say they cannot go back to their old style of life (or
a new style if they chose to do so) anywhere in Tibet or elsewhere in
China.



You don't need laws when you completely dominate another group
of people. There are different ways control them. You can move
large numbers of Han into Tibet and change the demographics to
the point that the locals realize that they need to play the game
by the new rules.


Yet they stay and they remain bored out of their frigging
minds. The incontrovertible fact then is there is nowhere in the
whole vast country of China that they can they recreate their former
lives. The world has changed and its not the Government's fault.



Pay attention. I havenıt claimed that it is the "Governmentıs fault".
Iıve been asking about how the Chinese government is handling the
situation and why they have selected this approach to the problem.


Therefore all this talk about preserving their culture won't bring
back their former lives. The best and perhaps only way they can
practice it is in the form of festivals. For their everyday lives
they must adapt to realities, and that is to find some form of work
they can do.



And not for the first time I agree but this isn't what we
are really talking about is it?


What this form will take is something neither you nor I
have a clue on since neither of us have been to Tibet let alone what
their hopes and capabilities are.



We agree again.


You have neither the intellectual
nor the moral authority to speak for them.



Since I havenıt claimed to speak for them I donıt see the sense in this
statement. Your post may hold the record for the most Straw Man Arguements
contained in a single post.

Joe


SNIP
  #145  
Old June 10th 08, 12:10 AM posted to sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,us.military.army
JJS[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12
Default Tibet: was Bush 'Plans Iran Air Strike by August'

In article , "Billzz"
wrote:

"JJS" wrote in message
. ..
In article ,

wrote:


-stuff snipped-

That's very acceptable to China for the DL remains outside China and
it doesn't cost China a single penny to keep the DL out. You guys are
being manipulated by the DL and you didn't recognize it.



Really. I'm being manipulated? Then perhaps you can tell me what
my position is concerning the Dalai Lama?

Joe


I was just passing by, and have no horse in this race, but I do have an
interesting story. Years ago I was in the far east, and met a learned
person, (probably in an airport bar, so take everything I next say with a
dose of salt) and the subject got around to Tibet. He said that most people
do not know that Tibet was once a feudal serfdom, and had some practices
that were very close to slavery.



As good a description as I've heard. Definitely not a paradise
for the masses.


The selection of the next Dalai Lama was
done by having the monks (lamas?) scour the countryside for the best and the
brightest amongst young males and then, with the agreement of the parents,
they would be taken back to Lhasa? and trained and examined, and the best
and the brightest would be the next Dalai Lama in waiting, and the others
were on standby. But the thing is that none of them went back. They were
essentially indentured servants. I don't remember everything, but he stated
that this is probably why there is no real revolution amongst the Tibetan
people, because they (maybe?) do not want the Dalai Lama system back. Of
course the Chinese government could be pounding them into the ground, but
with today's communication, and travelers, one thinks that one should hear
something.


Hard to tell but the average guy was probably more concerned with
just surviving.


As an aside, we have a friend who supports that brand of Buddhism, and so I
did meet with some saffron-robed Buddhist (priests?) who were from the Dalai
Lama's sect. They did a sand mandela (which is something to see)



I've seen a couple in Portland and they are amazing to watch being
created.


and sang
songs, and we saw slides of their monastery (which is now in India, and
looked very Spartan, indeed) and I thought that they were probably good
people, but they were definitely of a single culture - once in , never out.
Maybe it is the same as a monk in the Catholic church, but I don't know. I
know that my wife spent a hundred dollars for some blankets. Maybe someone
will be helped.

Anyway, I do not know if his story is true, or not, but it was interesting.
I don't care, one way or the other.


Thanks it was interesting.

Joe
  #146  
Old June 14th 08, 02:19 AM posted to sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,us.military.army
Michael Shirley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 23
Default Bush 'Plans Iran Air Strike by August'

On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 19:03:02 -0700, John Boyle
wrote:


To ALL: You people are nuts to think another war, at this Time and with
the condition of out military without the draft, makes any sense! We do
NOT have the manpower to handle the alleged war, and without manpower
you can NOT do what is necessary! I am a Retired Army Sergeant with 21
yrs of service and One year in Vietnam, with a Bronze star to boot!


Close, but draft, lack of, has little to do with it. The fact of the
matter is that our industrial base is about gone. Because of some really
bad decisions made by folks like Stewart Symington, that we don't need a
wartime production capability anymore, because we've got the bomb, we've
been on the same merge & RIF binge that the Brits have been on since
Christ was a Corporal.

What that means is that we're just like any other third world country. We
go to war with what we've got and when we run out, we're done. And that
makes buying airplanes that cost a hundred thirty million each for a
whopping total of around one hundred forty five or so airplanes, insane on
the face of it. One hundred thirty million is what you pay for a frigate
or a low end destroyer, not an asset which by the nature of it's
employment is essentially fungible. We're buying ourselves into a
situation where we have weapons that are too precious to actually risk
because they're impossible to replace in a timely manner, in wartime. Keep
in mind, that the production run for the F-4 Phantom was 2087 aircraft.

What it boils down to is that all the Chinese have to do in order to win
is what we did in WW-II-- outproduce everybody and just keep shoveling men
and gear in until we run out of stuff to send. All Beijing has to do in
order to win is to not lose.

And we're not gonna solve the problem with boutique weapons that have
twenty plus year long product development cycles either.

In the meantime, I got a look at what the Chinese are doing about their
fifth generation fighter project. Looks like a pirate copy of the Northrop
YF-23. You can bet though that the Chinese'll design theirs with a stable
aerobody rather than relying on EMP vulnerable electronic stability
systems, and you can bet that the electronics will be something more
advanced than the Intel 286 chip based systems on the F-22, which is what
you get when you get design & development programs that take twenty years
or longer.

Bottom line is this. First off, we need to reestablish our industrial
base and reorient military procurement thinking towards weapons we can
manufacture during a long slogging match with the Chinese and the Shanghai
Cooperative Organization.

Secondly, we need to go to the type of open market in combat aircraft
design that existed before the beginning of the Cold War when guys like
Symington created a mixed economy in weapons production. We need guys who
design and build airplanes, and then test them and then market them by
themselves without Air Force interference. Why? Because that way you have
a technological defense in depth like you had in WW-II where when Donovan
Berlin, (P-40) hit his slump, guys like Lee Atwood, Kelly Johnson and Ed
Heinemann could pick up the slack. Those guys all designed, built, tested
and flight qualified multiple aircraft. Your typical aeronautical engineer
gets to maybe work one project in his entire career. If you're gonna learn
to design combat aircraft, you do it by designing combat aircraft.

Laugh all you want to, but look at it this way. During the 1973 Yom
Kippur War, the Israelis lost 150 aicraft in three days to the Egyptian
air defense system. We were there to replace their airforce and their
armored forces, twice, and by the end of the war, much of their Air Force
consisted of US Air Force pilots on leave to fly the Phantoms that the
Israelis no longer had pilots to fly.

Now, maybe somebody can tell me who the Arsenal of Democracy is gonna be
to do for us, what we did for the Brits in one war and the Israelis in
another?



--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
  #147  
Old June 15th 08, 05:41 AM posted to sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,us.military.army
Michael Shirley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 23
Default Bush 'Plans Iran Air Strike by August'

On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 10:53:26 -0700, PaPaPeng wrote:



This long thread is evidence that the Chinese are already messing up
your minds from across the Pacific and in your own front yard (1.2%.)
Do the South Asians (Indians), Russians, Europeans, Arabs, anyone else
out there?, pose the same amount of concern about your place in the
global scene? Nope. China has displaced the USSR as your enemy #1.


It doesn't help that China has decided that we're their primary enemy
too, and I can recall one speech by Chi Haotian that makes me rather
nervous when I think of it. If you look at Chinese foreign policy for the
last twenty five years or so, it strongly resembles a Weiqi game on a
board designed by Halford MacKinder and Karl Hausehoffer.

I've got to give them a great deal of credit though. We build weapons and
hope that we can come up with the logistics to deploy and support them.
The Chinese built the logistical structure first and deferred weapons
acquisition until they could support it. We could learn something from
that,...

It's one of the big reasons that I hope that we don't attack Iran,
(another SCO member) and that we get out of the Middle East. If you ask
que bono, the only winner regardless of what we do or how well, will be
Beijing.

In the end, I hope we stay out of a direct armed conflict in any case.
We're a post industrial technological power with a rapidly declining
industrial base while China is a rising industrial power and the
preeminent industrial power on the planet-- what we were in WW-II. Given
our lack of convertable industrial base and our tendency to buy boutique
weapons systems that are too precious to hazard and impossible to replace
in wartime, all China has to do in order to win is simply not lose.

I'd just as soon avoid two things. First a modern equivalent of the
Russo-Japanese War with us playing the Czar's part, and a situation where
we both work to exhaust each other like the Persians and the Byzantines,
since in the end, your Islamic proxies would come to devour us both.
(Which may be their intention. They study history too.)
--
"Implications leading to ramifications leading to shenanigans"-- Admiral
Elmo Zumwalt, USN.
  #148  
Old June 15th 08, 06:35 AM posted to sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,us.military.army
eatfastnoodle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 33
Default Bush 'Plans Iran Air Strike by August'

On Jun 15, 12:41*pm, "Michael Shirley" wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 10:53:26 -0700, PaPaPeng wrote:

This long thread is evidence that the Chinese are already messing up
your minds from across the Pacific and in your own front yard (1.2%.)
Do the South Asians (Indians), Russians, Europeans, Arabs, anyone else
out there?, pose the same amount of concern about your place in the
global scene? *Nope. *China has displaced the USSR as your enemy #1.


* * * * It doesn't help that China has decided that we're their primary enemy *
too, and I can recall one speech by Chi Haotian that makes me rather *
nervous when I think of it. If you look at Chinese foreign policy for the *
last twenty five years or so, it strongly resembles a Weiqi game on a *
board designed by Halford MacKinder and Karl Hausehoffer.

* * * * I've got to give them a great deal of credit though. We build weapons and *
hope that we can come up with the logistics to deploy and support them. *
The Chinese built the logistical structure first and deferred weapons *
acquisition until they could support it. We could learn something from *
that,...

* * * * It's one of the big reasons that I hope that we don't attack Iran, *
(another SCO member) and that we get out of the Middle East. If you ask *
que bono, the only winner regardless of what we do or how well, will be *
Beijing.

* * * * In the end, I hope we stay out of a direct armed conflict in any case. *
We're a post industrial technological power with a rapidly declining *
industrial base while China is a rising industrial power and the *
preeminent industrial power on the planet-- what we were in WW-II. Given *
our lack of convertable industrial base and our tendency to buy boutique *
weapons systems that are too precious to hazard and impossible to replace *
in wartime, all China has to do in order to win is simply not lose.

* * * * I'd just as soon avoid two things. First a modern equivalent of the *
Russo-Japanese War with us playing the Czar's part, and a situation where *
we both work to exhaust each other like the Persians and the Byzantines, *
since in the end, your Islamic proxies would come to devour us both. *
(Which may be their intention. They study history too.)
--
"Implications leading to ramifications leading to shenanigans"-- Admiral *
Elmo Zumwalt, USN.


I highly doubt China will do anything to stop US from attacking Iran
if the US were really determined to do so. And I don't think the
biggest problem for US in a hypothetical war with Iran would be China
or Chinese arm sale to Iran. Just like Iraq, US would waste trillions
of dollars and thousands, even tens of thousands of casualties and a
further trash-down of American reputation and credibility in an
attempt to pacify Iran, however the military performs, the result
would still be a Iran deeply suspicious of America with more than
enough political entities waiting to take-over after a withdrawal. The
mindset of certain group of Americans often seen on this group is just
like typical American consumer who put "what I want" way ahead of
"what I can afford", they will talk about security, Bin Laden,
"mushroom cloud" incessantly while completely disregard whether or not
America can actually afford fighting another or even multiple Iraq
style war. One historical lesson seems to have totally lost on them:
when a great power overextend itself for too long, it will collapse.
The collapse of Soviet Union didn't teach them anything, on the
contrary, they seem to hold even more tightly to the naive belief
America will not overspend itself into collapse simply because America
is a democracy and has a free market system. They bear a eerie
resemblance to the bunch of army officers who dragged Imperial Japan
into WWII: one Japanese officer once told the minister of finance that
"we are soldiers, we don't know nothing about budget and fiance,all we
know is that for the security of our empire, we need this, if you
can't deliver, we will find somebody else who can". Afghanistan did
pose a threat to Soviet security, so with the same mindset, Soviet
leadership decided to invade, guess what, Soviet Union collapsed
partially because of the astronomical cost, security, geopolitical
intricacy, military posture, blah blah blah all become moot if you
can't keep a healthy domestic economy and keep your spending under
control.
 




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