Mxsmanic , IFR sensations, and some other stuff

On May 18, 9:23*pm, Le Chaud Lapin wrote:

It is pretty cool to see that 90% of this thread is useable info
coming from experts sharing their opinions. *This non-combative type
of exchange helps newbies like myself learn.

Unfortunately, I'd suspect it's about to change..... Mx stepped in.
I am not replying to his post so I dont' contribute to any additional
noise and he doesn't understand the real world environment of flying
an airplane.. Hopefully others will respect Dudley's request.....

Also, I read somewhere that JFK Junior's plane crashed probably
because he did not trust his intstruments. *What's the likelihood of
that?

Hopefully for an instrument pilot, NEVER, but when you have an
instrument go out, it does up the anti in IDENTIFYING the problem and
then tossing that instrument out of your scan.

In my case, the change was pretty dramatic as it happened after
departing and in my climb in my departure as I was entering IMC.
Everything was absolutely normal on my first 1000 feet of climb and
nothing had changed on what I felt in the seat of my pants when I saw
the AI start showing a pitch up just about 100 feet inside IMC. Had I
really pitched up that much, I would have felt it. The lack of
feeling it immediately made me look at my VSI and it was rock solid
700 fpm climb, no change from below the cloud deck. Next instrument I
looked at was my airspeed and that was 90 knots, so secondary
instruments confirmed a normal climb and further confirmed my lack of
feeling in my butt indicated the AI was ghosting up on me.

I believe it's not normal to get such a dramatic change like I did,
but then again, as I am still finding out, it may not be the vacuum
pump, but the vacuum pump regulator that went out on me in my plane.
Will find out tomorrow morning when I talk with the A&P.

writes:

As I keep stressing, the absence of a feeling is equally as important
as looking at an erroneous AI that is saying I have a 20 to 30 degree
pitch up.

Except that it's not. The absence of a feeling tells you nothing, just as a
feeling tells you nothing. If you could trust feelings, you wouldn't have to
rely on instruments, and all the effort that goes into obtaining an instrument
rating would be unnecessary.

Denying or ignoring that feeling and listening to a
defective instrument does toss the above text book out the window in a
trouble shooting stage..

Well, yes, it does.

If you have a backup AI, you should periodically look at it to see if it
agrees with your primary AI. You should also correlate instruments to each
other. If your AI says you're in a 45-degree bank, you should see a change in
heading on the DG, the turn coordinator should show a bank, and the magnetic
compass should be moving. If you see only the bank indication on the AI,
without the other indications, the AI might have a problem, and then you look
at the backup AI. If it shows no bank, and no other instrument shows what it
should show for a turn, the primary AI is malfunctioning. No physical
sensations required.

Conversely, if the seat of your pants tells you that you are climbing, but the
altimeter is not changing and the VSI is zeroed, you are not climbing, no
matter what your rear end says. Your instrument scan might tell you that you
are turning instead. Or your airspeed indicator might tell you that you are
changing speed. In any case, your instruments are right, and the seat of your
pants is wrong.

It was that feeling that helped me identify a problem quicker then
just "trust the instrument indications" I didn't oscillate in my
altitude which would have been a potential result had I trusted the
AI. It was when I didn't feel what the AI was telling me, then I
went to my secondary instrumentation to indeed confirm and verify that
my AI was amiss.

Why weren't you scanning all your instruments? If you were, you'd notice
something wrong without any need for physical sensation.

Had I trusted the instruments and pushed the nose over, I would have
put myself in a more dangerous position.

The instruments? How many were failing? How many did you check? The AI was
failing ... what else was failing? If the other instruments were working,
your instrument scan would tell you that something was wrong. If you weren't
scanning your instruments, you had already put yourself in a dangerous
position.

In all of the above, I am not saying don't fly by instruments, but use
what you feel and what you know IN ADDITION to what sits in front of
you.

No. In IFR flight, use the instruments only, and ignore what you feel.

When you are standing on the ground, or walking down a sidewalk, your senses
are doing what they are designed to do, and they work quite well. When you
are flying in IMC, your senses are being used for something for which they
were not intended, and they become notoriously unreliable.

Not sure if you are familiar with Martial arts, but to win a battle,
you use the opponents weakness for your strength, and I apply this to
my IFR flying. Our weakness is inner ear balance, and I do disregard
any "head feelings" I get, but I do use my rear end to assist me on
what I feel, and SHOULD be feeling based on POWER INPUTS.

That's a mistake.

Le Chaud Lapin writes:

Also, I read somewhere that JFK Junior's plane crashed probably
because he did not trust his intstruments. What's the likelihood of
that?

Extremely high, for pilots unfamiliar with IFR flight.

writes:

Hopefully for an instrument pilot, NEVER, but when you have an
instrument go out, it does up the anti in IDENTIFYING the problem and
then tossing that instrument out of your scan.

You identify a failing instrument by correlating it with other instruments.
If you are continuously scanning the instruments, you should notice something
wrong very quickly, if it's a sudden failure, and still in plenty of time, if
it's a gradual failure.

In my case, the change was pretty dramatic as it happened after
departing and in my climb in my departure as I was entering IMC.
Everything was absolutely normal on my first 1000 feet of climb and
nothing had changed on what I felt in the seat of my pants when I saw
the AI start showing a pitch up just about 100 feet inside IMC. Had I
really pitched up that much, I would have felt it. The lack of
feeling it immediately made me look at my VSI and it was rock solid
700 fpm climb, no change from below the cloud deck. Next instrument I
looked at was my airspeed and that was 90 knots, so secondary
instruments confirmed a normal climb and further confirmed my lack of
feeling in my butt indicated the AI was ghosting up on me.

Why weren't you looking at these other instruments already?

Le Chaud Lapin wrote:
On May 18, 4:58 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Like I said gang, it's everybody's personal decision to make. I'm simply
stating here what I'm going to do myself. I'll not be ragging on those
who don't think the way I do on these issues.
I am hopeful however, that Mxsmanic and those who have been his
adversaries will simply read what I've said here and say nothing to each
other about it but rather simply and silently take a few steps backward
and consider re-engaging with each other, each giving a little without
saying or admitting they are giving a little.
Who knows; I'll be giving it a shot anyway.

It is pretty cool to see that 90% of this thread is useable info
coming from experts sharing their opinions. This non-combative type
of exchange helps newbies like myself learn.

I am particularly interested to see what final word is on the trust-
your-instruments argument.

Also, I read somewhere that JFK Junior's plane crashed probably
because he did not trust his intstruments. What's the likelihood of
that?

-Le Chaud Lapin-

I wasn't there of course, but I do know how dangerous the Martha's
vineyard area horizon can be in deepening haze. Flying out over the
ocean at dusk or at night has similar hazards for the unwary VFR pilot.
Sometimes the haze line is at an angle to the actual horizon which may
be hidden. This combination can put a pilot flying VFR in a whole lot of
trouble.

I've always believed that Kennedy fell victim to a false horizon by
somehow starting a turn on a false visual reference then allowing his
nose to get away from him in the haze due to his inexperience causing
him not to realize he needed to transition immediately to instruments.
In this condition and with the nose lowering and the airspeed rising,
Kennedy desperately needed to realize he needed to level the wings and
kill the bank as the lead in to recovering the nose in pitch.
This is the classic graveyard spiral. Not solving for bank and trying to
solve for pitch simply deepened the issue. I'm fairly convinced that by
this time the nose was so low and the spiral tightening so fast he
became fixated on the grayness in front of him that he thought was gray
sky but was in fact gray water.
The rest is history.
Just my read on one potential cause for that accident.


--
Dudley Henriques

On May 18, 9:55*pm, Mxsmanic wrote:

If you have a backup AI, you should periodically look at it to see if it
agrees with your primary AI. *

I live in the real world. I do not have a back up AI.

You should also correlate instruments to each
other. *If your AI says you're in a 45-degree bank, you should see a change in
heading on the DG,

Did you forget what system failed? What DG????????????

Conversely, if the seat of your pants tells you that you are climbing, but the
altimeter is not changing and the VSI is zeroed, you are not climbing, no
matter what your rear end says. *

AGAIN READ MY POST! My VSI showed 700 fpm

Your instrument scan might tell you that you
are turning instead. *Or your airspeed indicator might tell you that you are
changing speed. *In any case, your instruments are right, and the seat of your
pants is wrong.

READ MY POST. THE ABOVE DOES NOT APPLY.

The instruments? *How many were failing? *How many did you check? *The AI was
failing ... what else was failing? *

Vacuum system failed, you tell me.

No. *In IFR flight, use the instruments only, and ignore what you feel.

Vacuum system failed. I'd be dead if I listened to you and ignored
something I should have felt based on the AI pitched up. My seat of
the pants feeling (or lack of feeling in this case) had me diagnose
the problem in shorter time then me typing this paragraph. And yes,
after figuring out the primary instruments were ghosted up, I went to
my secondary instruments as they confirmed what I felt before entering
IMC..

IN OTHER WORDS NOTHING CHANGED IN ENGINE SOUND, OR FEELING EXCEPT for
the AI showing a abnormally high pitch up. The lack of feeling
becomes VERY IMPORTANT as it was dramatic.

Not sure if you are familiar with Martial arts, but to win a battle,
you use the opponents weakness for your strength, and I apply this to
my IFR flying. *Our weakness is inner ear balance, and I do disregard
any "head feelings" I get, but I do use my rear end to assist me on
what I feel, and SHOULD be feeling based on POWER INPUTS.

That's a mistake.

It apparently wasn't a mistake if I am here to post and share my
experiences. Nor apparently do you know anything about Martial arts.

A Lieberman writes:

Did you forget what system failed? What DG????????????

Does the altimeter require vacuum?

AGAIN READ MY POST! My VSI showed 700 fpm

What did the altimeter say? What did the magnetic compass say?

It apparently wasn't a mistake if I am here to post and share my
experiences.

You were lucky.

Nor apparently do you know anything about Martial arts.

This is an aviation group. I care nothing about martial arts, although I know
that they can provide a false sense of security as well.

A Lieberman wrote:

It apparently wasn't a mistake if I am here to post and share my
experiences. Nor apparently do you know anything about Martial arts.

I know a little :-) Studied Kodokan Judo at the Kodokan. Rose to Nidan.
Favorite throw was Uchimata both sides. Lousy on the mat. I was fast as
hell in standing Randori an managed not to end up down there very often.
Sensi was Takihito Ishikawa.
Enjoyed it a great deal. Wish I could still play, but a spinal injury
has slowed me down a bit.
--
Dudley Henriques

On May 18, 10:13*pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:

I know a little :-) Studied Kodokan Judo at the Kodokan. Rose to Nidan.
Favorite throw was Uchimata both sides. Lousy on the mat. I was fast as
hell in standing Randori an managed not to end up down there very often.
Sensi was Takihito Ishikawa.

Dabbled in Tai Chai Chuan and Kung Fu. Just enough to get me out of
street trouble growing up in inner city is all I wanted :-)

What impressed me about those skills is not the physical part but the
mental part and carrying them over to our everyday living part of this
being acutely what you sense or feel..

So, I try to carry the mental skills to my flying and be acutely aware
of my senses which based on yours and Roberts responses may be my
downfall :-)

On May 18, 10:12*pm, Mxsmanic wrote:

Does the altimeter require vacuum?

You tell me.

What did the altimeter say? *What did the magnetic compass say?

My proper altitude. Didn't use my magnetic compass. I used my Garmin
430 GPS tracking and reported to ATC that would be my primary
instrument to be used for my headings. They acknowledge no problems
with my usage of the GPS.

It apparently wasn't a mistake if I am here to post and share my
experiences.

You were lucky.

Nope on the contrary, it wasn't luck. I attribute it to my quality
training and again will repeat again to you, I took my instrument
failure training to heart and all the training got me through this NON
EVENT.

Nor apparently do you know anything about Martial arts.

This is an aviation group. *I care nothing about martial arts, although I know
that they can provide a false sense of security as well.

Then you do not know anything about martial arts or me.