even the pros dont get it right

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

Where can ICAO phraseology be found?

At ICAO's.

How do you know the US is the only
nation that doesn't adhere to ICAO phraseology?

I don't. I was provokating.

Stefan

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

It seems you're at a complete loss as to how a transition altitude based on
some distance above the ground makes a lot of sense if you consider the
airspace structure and air traffic rules of Europe.

It rather seems that sometimes I have some spare time and sometimes I
have none and/or don't feel like spending it here.

As to your question: In some countries, airspace E begins as low as 2000
ft AGL. Yes, AGL again. This is outside CTRs, of course. So all IFR
flights are under direct control of ATC, even when flying as low as e.g.
FL30. It makes a lot of sense that they all use the same altimeter
setting. ATC knows about mountains in the region, of course, as well as
the pressure situation, and routes the flights accordingly.

You may second guess the airspace structure, of course, but this is not
the point here.

BTW: VFR flights should adhere to the transition level, too, but do so
rather loosely.

Stefan

On Wed, 18 May 2005 22:44:23 +0200, Stefan wrote:

If you like nitpicking: ATC should never tell you to "climb to FL 150".
The correct phrase is "climb FL 150".

That is not standard phraseology in the US.

In the US, the appropriate instruction would be "climb and maintain FL 150"


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On Thu, 19 May 2005 15:57:35 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

Where can ICAO phraseology be found?

ICAO sets out standard international phraseology for communications between
air traffic services and pilots in several documents including Annex 10
Volume 2 (Communications Procedures) to the Convention on International
Civil Aviation and ICAO PANS-ATM (Procedures for Air Navigation Services –
Air Traffic Management) Doc. 4444.

I was not able to find that on the www. However, the British Radio
Telephony Manual CAP 413 is available at

http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start...13.PDF&e=10313

There is also an appendix where they list the differences from ICAO
standard.

With regard to the current discussion, of "level instructions", CAP 413
states:

===================================
1.2 Level Instructions

1.2.1 Only basic level instructions are detailed in this chapter. More
comprehensive phrases are contained in subsequent chapters in the context
in which they are most commonly used.

1.2.2 The precise phraseology used in the transmission and acknowledgement
of climb and descent clearances will vary, depending upon the
circumstances, traffic density and nature of the flight operations.

1.2.3 However, care must be taken to ensure that misunderstandings are not
generated as a consequence of the phraseology employed during these phases
of flight. For example, levels may be reported as altitude, height or
flight levels according to the phase of flight and the altimeter setting.

Therefore, when passing level messages, the following conventions apply:
a) The word ‘to’ is to be omitted from messages relating to FLIGHT LEVELS.
b) All messages relating to an aircraft’s climb or descent to a HEIGHT or
ALTITUDE employ the word ‘to’ followed immediately by the word HEIGHT or
ALTITUDE. Furthermore, the initial message in any such RTF exchange will
also include the appropriate QFE or QNH.
==========================================

Examples include:

Climb FL 150

Climb to altitude 2000 feet.


In another section, they state that "Climb" means "Climb and maintain"



Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

Civil Aviation and ICAO PANS-ATM (Procedures for Air Navigation Services –
Air Traffic Management) Doc. 4444.

I was not able to find that on the www.

The document must be bought, it is not freely available. (In fact, it's
very expensive).

However, the British Radio
Telephony Manual CAP 413 is available at

Examples include:
Climb FL 150
Climb to altitude 2000 feet.

Thanks for the clarification.

Stefan

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

It seems you're at a complete loss as to how a transition altitude based
on some distance above the ground makes a lot of sense if you consider
the airspace structure and air traffic rules of Europe.

It rather seems that sometimes I have some spare time and sometimes I have
none and/or don't feel like spending it here.

As to your question: In some countries, airspace E begins as low as 2000
ft AGL. Yes, AGL again. This is outside CTRs, of course. So all IFR
flights are under direct control of ATC, even when flying as low as e.g.
FL30. It makes a lot of sense that they all use the same altimeter
setting. ATC knows about mountains in the region, of course, as well as
the pressure situation, and routes the flights accordingly.

You may second guess the airspace structure, of course, but this is not
the point here.

In the UK class A starts at the surface and certainly as low as 2500 outside
the CTR

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 19 May 2005 15:57:35 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

Where can ICAO phraseology be found?

ICAO sets out standard international phraseology for communications
between
air traffic services and pilots in several documents including Annex 10
Volume 2 (Communications Procedures) to the Convention on International
Civil Aviation and ICAO PANS-ATM (Procedures for Air Navigation Services -
Air Traffic Management) Doc. 4444.

I was not able to find that on the www. However, the British Radio
Telephony Manual CAP 413 is available at

http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start...13.PDF&e=10313

There is also an appendix where they list the differences from ICAO
standard.

With regard to the current discussion, of "level instructions", CAP 413
states:

===================================
1.2 Level Instructions

1.2.1 Only basic level instructions are detailed in this chapter. More
comprehensive phrases are contained in subsequent chapters in the context
in which they are most commonly used.

1.2.2 The precise phraseology used in the transmission and acknowledgement
of climb and descent clearances will vary, depending upon the
circumstances, traffic density and nature of the flight operations.

1.2.3 However, care must be taken to ensure that misunderstandings are not
generated as a consequence of the phraseology employed during these phases
of flight. For example, levels may be reported as altitude, height or
flight levels according to the phase of flight and the altimeter setting.

Therefore, when passing level messages, the following conventions apply:
a) The word 'to' is to be omitted from messages relating to FLIGHT LEVELS.
b) All messages relating to an aircraft's climb or descent to a HEIGHT or
ALTITUDE employ the word 'to' followed immediately by the word HEIGHT or
ALTITUDE. Furthermore, the initial message in any such RTF exchange will
also include the appropriate QFE or QNH.
==========================================

Examples include:

Climb FL 150

Climb to altitude 2000 feet.


In another section, they state that "Climb" means "Climb and maintain"



Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

The nub of the thread is that pilots flying in different airspace are
required to familiarise themselves with the appropriate phraseology.

Again quoting from the British CAP 413 (an excellent publication)

Where the ICAO standard phraseology may be misunderstood, or has weaknesses
in the UK environment, different phraseology has been specified for use (and
notified to ICAO). In the UK, air traffic service units and pilots are
expected to comply with the phraseology and procedures described in main
text of this document.

When communicating with air traffic service units in other States pilots
should use phraseology and procedures set out by ICAO (subject to any
differences notified by that State).

Basically it is the pilots duty to find out what's different to the standard
(ICAO).

Most of the Aeronautical Information Publications have a standard section of
variations to ICAO. It is usually GEN 1.7

This is the French one for example.

http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv....0GEN%201.7.pdf

"Stefan" wrote in message
...

As to your question: In some countries, airspace E begins as low as 2000
ft AGL. Yes, AGL again. This is outside CTRs, of course. So all IFR
flights are under direct control of ATC, even when flying as low as e.g.
FL30. It makes a lot of sense that they all use the same altimeter
setting. ATC knows about mountains in the region, of course, as well as
the pressure situation, and routes the flights accordingly.

You may second guess the airspace structure, of course, but this is not
the point here.

BTW: VFR flights should adhere to the transition level, too, but do so
rather loosely.


In some countries Class E airspace begins even lower than 2000 AGL. In the
US the floor of Class E airspace is most often at 1200 AGL, but it can also
be at 700 AGL or right at the surface. But my question wasn't about the
floor of Class E airspace, it was about the transition altitude. Please try
again.

"Stefan" wrote in message
...

At ICAO's.


How does one obtain it?



I don't. I was provokating.


I'm pretty sure "provokating" is a typo, but I don't know what word you
meant. Provoking?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

I'm pretty sure "provokating" is a typo, but I don't know what word you
meant. Provoking?

No, it's not a typo. It's a linguistic error of somebody who tries to
communicate in a foreign language. I'm sure it won't happen to you.

Stefan